Israel declares war on Hamas

[Manhattanboy]

The NDP resolution in the House was far from unanimous, as is the subsequent Liberal announcement regarding arms shipments. For those who need reminders as how we got here, two of the speeches by Conservative MPs.

First, from Hon Michael Chong (Wellington – Halton Hills, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Thornhill.

Today I speak on behalf of Conservatives. Conservatives, like everyone in this chamber, want to see an end to the conflict between Israel and Hamas. We are concerned about the loss of civilian life in Gaza, the loss of children, women and other civilians. We are equally concerned about the humanitarian crisis, the humanitarian needs of some two million Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip. We are concerned about their access to food, water and the other basic necessities of life.

We condemn the atrocities of October 7, 2023, atrocities committed by Hamas against some 1,200 innocent Israeli civilians. Hamas committed these atrocities against these innocent women, men, children and babies, who were just civilians living their lives in their houses on that dark day of October 7. Conservatives assess that Hamas committed war crimes that day. We base that assessment on the evidence collected by reputable news organizations and western governments. Innocent civilians were raped and tortured. Children and babies were slaughtered. Civilians were beheaded and bodies were burned. Hamas deliberately used techniques employed by ISIS.

Conservatives also condemn the taking of 253 innocent civilians as hostages that day by Hamas, also a crime under international humanitarian law. Over half of these innocent civilians remain hostage, held by Hamas. This too is a war crime, a crime under the law of armed conflict.

This is why we, as Conservatives, support humanitarian aid and humanitarian pauses for the Palestinian people in Gaza and why we support the State of Israel's right to defend itself in eliminating Hamas as a threat. However, we cannot support providing humanitarian aid through an organization whose employees joined Hamas and participated in the October 7 atrocities. Humanitarian aid needs to be delivered through a different mechanism, through a different organization than that of UNRWA.

There are those who say that UNRWA is the only organization that can possibly deliver aid on the ground to some two million Palestinians in Gaza. What happened to the creativity and the immense resources of the west? Seventy-six years ago, the west faced another similar humanitarian crisis of similar proportions. Some two million West Berliners were trapped in a Soviet-occupied zone in Germany, blocked from receiving aid and the basic needs of life because of a blockade that had been set up by the Soviets. The west responded with creativity and with far fewer resources than we have today to help the people of West Berlin.

The Berlin airlift of 1948-49 lasted for 15 months and provided the basic needs of life for two and a quarter million West Berliners. At the time, there were plenty of people saying that it could not be done, plenty of naysayers saying that it was impossible to do, but our forebears in Ottawa, Washington and London decided otherwise. They came up with a creative way, with much more limited resources than we have today, to help the people of West Berlin. Maybe an airlift is not the solution here, but surely the west, with much greater resources today, can use the same kind of creativity that we had 76 years ago to deliver humanitarian aid to the some two million Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip without having to use an organization that has been complicit with Hamas.

Conservatives support providing humanitarian aid to the Palestinian people, but not through UNRWA. We also support the right of the State of Israel to defend itself against Hamas, which committed the most unspeakable atrocities on October 7. We should not forget the genesis of this most recent conflict. The genesis is Hamas and its atrocities of October 7. Hamas is what we should be focused on, not the State of Israel. Hamas is the only party to this conflict that is to blame for this conflict, that started this conflict and that can end this conflict. Hamas, today, can unconditionally surrender, release all of the remaining 130 or so hostages and lay down all its arms.

Let us not forget it was this Parliament and the Government of Canada that decided Hamas is a terrorist entity. The decision was made by Parliament to empower the Government of Canada, through the Criminal Code, to designate entities as terrorists. The Government of Canada has taken the decision to list it as a terrorist entity, and we should not forget that this reflects the will of the Canadian people as expressed through Parliament and through the Government of Canada.

Hamas is at fault for October 7. Hamas is the one who, on October 7, broke a ceasefire. Hamas is responsible for the greatest loss of Jewish civilian life since the Shoah, the Holocaust. Hamas is the reason Israel has executed on its right under international law and on its responsibility to protect its people from this horrendous threat.

Conservatives support Canada's long-standing position of a two-state solution, a state of Palestine living in peace, security and prosperity next to the State of Israel. However, this cannot be achieved through some sort of unilateral declaration in the House of Commons, just like we cannot declare in this House of Commons that an authoritarian state is suddenly a democracy.

I would think that in the aftermath of the Arab Spring, in the aftermath of the second war in Iraq and in the aftermath of what happened in Afghanistan several years ago, we would understand that simply declaring a democracy does not result in one. Democracy is not the result of a declaration. It is the result of a long, arduous process that can take months, if not years, of negotiations for a constitution that results in democratic institutions that have popular support. It is only then that one can have a democracy and that one can have democratic elections that result in the selection of leaders who govern.

Similarly, a two-state solution cannot be achieved just by a declaration. It can only be achieved through a long, arduous process that will take months, if not years, of negotiations between the two parties at hand: the State of Israel and representatives of the Palestinian people, representatives who have the popular support of the Palestinian people, who have renounced violence and terrorism and who have accepted the rules-based international order.

Let me finish by saying that Conservatives support the aspirations of the Palestinian people to have their own state, a Palestinian state that would join the community of nations around the world and would allow the Palestinian people to fulfill their hopes and dreams, a Palestinian state that would contribute to the region's peace and security, like the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan has done and like other states have done in the region, a Palestinian state that would give hope, opportunity and ever-increasing prosperity to the millions of Palestinians living in the region and a Palestinian state no longer ruled by Hamas and other terrorist entities that use violence as a means to an end and that have used the Palestinian people for their own enrichment, their own control and their own ends.

Conservatives support the State of Israel. Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. It has the right to defend itself and has the right to use all legal means necessary under the law of armed conflict to ensure its peace and security. Conservatives see Israel as a democratic partner in the Middle East. Israel, like Ukraine, is at the front line of a clash between a rising authoritarianism backed by states like the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Russian Federation and the People's Republic of China, and democracies like Ukraine and the State of Israel.

In this rising clash between two very different models of governance, there is no doubt where Canada's interests and Canada's values lie. We stand with liberal democracies like Ukraine and like the State of Israel. For all these reasons, Conservatives will not be supporting the motion before the House.

[Manhattanboy]

And from Melissa Lantsman (Thornhill, CPC)

Mr. Speaker, despite the many positions of the Government of Canada, the motion is not about a ceasefire; the motion is about rewarding Hamas for its massacre. The motion is about a vote to reward the murder, rape and kidnapping of Israelis, and the motion is deeply irresponsible for Parliament.

It is hard to explain and express the complex feelings of shock, fear and anger felt by thousands across the country who are being subjected to the motion today. It would have been enough if they were shocked by the public displays of blatant anti-Semitism in our streets, driven entirely by the irresponsible rhetoric in the House. It would have been enough if they were fearful for what lies ahead in Canada. It would have been enough if they were only angry and betrayed by the government's duplicitous attempt to be all things to all people, like we just heard.

However, today the blind sellout to the forces of evil at home and abroad is what should be a wake-up call like no other to every freedom-loving Canadian who has built any piece of this country and who enjoys everything that those before us built for us.

The motion would be a ceasefire motion if it called for Hamas to lay down its arms, to surrender and to immediately return every single hostage, to bring them home. It is not that.

In the face of some of the world's most vile anti-Semitism, and in the wake of the deadliest day for the Jews since the Holocaust, the Liberal government and the Prime Minister held captive by its NDP overlords are giving in to terror. The motion before us is only the latest example of that. On October 7, 2023, Hamas launched an unprovoked and unjustified attack on innocent civilians in Israel, where hundreds of men and women, young and old, were raped, murdered, tortured and taken hostage. More than 100 of those hostages are still being held captive.

The motion is not only an abandonment of the ongoing fight to bring those hostages home; it is also an abandonment of our ally in Israel. More than that, it is a blind giveaway to Hamas terrorists and those who seek to undermine democracy, freedom and the rule of law in the Middle East and in the western world. It is an insult to everyone who lost a family member in the attack and to anyone who witnesses a nation, an ally, paralyzed by forces so barbaric, so evil, that discussing the motion today flies in the face of civilization and the future of a Palestinian people free of Hamas. There is a reason that Canada has a long-standing policy of not negotiating with terrorists. It is that it rewards barbarism, and worse that it provides an incentive for that barbarism to continue and even escalate.

I want members of the chamber to think long and hard about what many concessions in the motion mean for peace. In the short term they mean that Hamas would remain intact. They mean that no more members of Hamas would be brought to justice. They mean that no more hostages would likely be brought home. In the long run they mean that Hamas would be rewarded for its decision to attack a democratic nation.

They mean that our lost decade of foreign policy in this country would be culminated by a recognition of a state ruled by terror instead of what was once a long-established consensus of Canadian foreign policy by Liberal governments before this one that says that there should be a negotiated solution among parties. The Government of Canada supports parties that want to see a future of two states living side by side in peace and security in a negotiated settlement.

It is shocking and shameful that elected representatives here in this place would support such a dead giveaway to a group literally defined as terrorists by Canadian law. Imagine a future for the Palestinian people free of Hamas. We do not have to imagine it; we see it in the success of peaceful gulf states whose raison d'être is not the annihilation of the other or a perverse nihilism of their own people.

We should not be surprised, however. After eight years of the Prime Minister and his Liberal government, our nation has abandoned almost every principle that we used to be known for on the world stage. It is the Liberal government that called the Taliban our brothers and sisters, that frolicked with African dictators to try to buy a seat on the UN Security Council, that fails the basic task of listing the IRGC as terrorists and banning from this country those who are known backers of these atrocities and who intimidate our own citizens as sport, and that is now taking the side of a literal terrorist organization best known for killing babies in ovens and starving their own citizens in Gaza for more than a generation.

Yes, peace is needed in the Middle East. Yes, we all want to see an end to violence and to see aid reach those who are absolutely in need of it. Yes, we want to find a long-term solution that helps both innocent Israelis and innocent Palestinians live in peace and security. Yes, Hamas is responsible for all of the carnage that sets these goals back. However, there is a way to do that without sacrificing our principles, and there is a way to do it that is not a dead giveaway to a murderous, barbaric, inhumane terrorist group.

The motion is not that way. It advances the same kind of foreign policy that sees our foreign minister and the member of Parliament for York Centre caress the hand of a dictator in the 19th year of his four-year term, a terrorist who denies the Holocaust, who denies what took place on October 7, 2023, and who set up the martyrs fund that rewards families of terrorists who killed Jews, including, in some cases, family members in that member's riding. There is no other word than “shameful” for that.

Today she will have a free vote on the motion, and we will all be watching. We will see whether she puts her community first or whether she is just a sellout to the Prime Minister and the radical mob once again, as this is not about foreign policy but about the heartless ploy to placate the domestic audience by a government that has lost its way.

I am not afraid for my community to see the tragic support of a deeply illiberal government stand against it, but I am afraid for our country; for our reputation abroad; and, most of all, for the values that this country is formed upon, the values of order, of democracy, of justice and freedom; and of the precedent that is being set here today with the motion. It would set in place a casual, gradual erosion and a disregard of the very beliefs that make this country special, sending a signal that we support a noisy few over a silent many, lawlessness over principle and what is convenient over what is right.

The government is playing a dangerous game of moral equivalency, pitting one group against another. It misrepresents the truth about support for funding for organizations like UNRWA, in fact for the organization UNRWA. The government promised a month ago that it would cut off the flow of taxpayer dollars to an agency whose members actively participated on October 7, 2023. It is rewarding rapists.

It is yet another empty and broken pledge made in a blatantly transactional manner for domestic politics, one that never saw the funding stop. The government advanced payments instead and upped the amount. These payments are not going to bankrupt our country in a fiscal sense but in a moral sense. The price of abandoning our values, our allies and reason is the true cost of these payments. That is the true cost of the Prime Minister's moral indifference, and that would be the true cost of the motion before us.

It is not too late. We can begin by voting the motion down. We can begin by voting down the Hamas giveaway. We can continue by voting out the immoral, immature Liberal government, and we can finish by putting in place a principled, common-sense Conservative government that will never support this motion, not now and not ever. Hamas is watching the House. Our allies are watching the House. Canadians are watching the House. Our allies and all Canadians will see that there are members on this side who stand in their fight for democracy, who stand in their fight for the west and who stand in their fight for justice.

I will leave colleagues with these words. There are going to be many politicians who make a choice today. Ours will be the right one. I can only hope that members, all members on the other side, make the right one too. When they do not, those who sit with them will have to account for their own choices.

[Zary's-Mustache]

I've had to close my tik tok account because I couldn't stand to see the atrocities commited against the Palestinians. Little children massacred. Some alive with horrible burns and limbs cut off without anesthesia.

Such a cruel world we live in. Israel will have to answer to their genocidal war crimes one-day.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

I've had to close my tik tok account because I couldn't stand to see the atrocities commited against the Palestinians. Little children massacred. Some alive with horrible burns and limbs cut off without anesthesia.

Such a cruel world we live in. Israel will have to answer to their genocidal war crimes one-day.

You’re new here. Tell us how you were feeling and what you were thinking on October 8, 2023.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Being critical of canada is OK, but being critical of Israel or zionism is antisemitic somehow? The double standard would be breathtaking if it wasn't so tragic.

You're willing to defend Israel while they commit a literal genocide, but you belittle the importance of the country you live in for standing up to the genocide.

Haha ok sure, and there is the blood libel.
There is no genocide, its a war, I am sorry Palestinian society cares more about destroying Israel then creating and building their own state. Billions of dollars into tunnels, rockets, and terror infrastructure in Gaza. Millions of PLO dollars spent on paying terrorists families. All to get what exactly? Bad PR for Israel? 1200 dead Israelis and 250 hostages? a destroyed Gaza ? and the furtherest weve ever been from a Palestinian state? But hey, congrats on this monumental win by our government who does not care about Palestinians but only getting re-elected

Maybe we will even invite Abbas and give him a standing ovation in parliament. We already did it for one Nazi, whats another?

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

You’re new here. Tell us how you were feeling and what you were thinking on October 8, 2023.

I was thinking was a very sad day on October 7th and that the world is a cruel one with monsters on both sides.

The reaction by Israel was unjust and a war crime on so many levels.

How do you feel on March 20th 2024? Seeing thousands of dead palestinian children. How's that make you feel today?

[Manhattanboy]

I don't consider this an unjust war, the elimination of Hamas, but it is almost impossible for Israel to achieve its objectives without further death and destruction of innocent lives.

I am for a ceasefire, the disarming of Hamas and the return of the hostages.

There cannot be a repeat of the events of October 7 that originates from Gaza.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I don't consider this an unjust war, the elimination of Hamas, but it is almost impossible for Israel to achieve its objectives without further death and destruction of innocent lives.

I am for a ceasefire, the disarming of Hamas and the return of the hostages.

There cannot be a repeat of the events of October 7 that originates from Gaza.

You asked me a cheap question yet refused to answer my question.

How do you feel on March 20th with thousands of dead children?

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

You asked me a cheap question yet refused to answer my question.

How do you feel on March 20th with thousands of dead children?

Regretful. Terrible.

But I lay the blame entirely on Hamas.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

You asked me a cheap question yet refused to answer my question.

How do you feel on March 20th with thousands of dead children?

How do you feel about Hamas using hospitals and refugee camps as human shields and pimping out their own population to achieve their goal of wiping out every Jew and creating a Jihadi caliphate in the middle east?

Or how about the billions of dollars of foreign aid Hamas have been given over the last 18 years to only use it to create a pariah state whose sole function and being is to wage war with Israel? How do you feel about that? Is that how you achieve peace or a state?

How do you feel about Iran using Hezbollah and Hamas as proxy armies who fire rockets into civilians centers, unprovoked for decades?

How do you feel about the pay for slay initiative where the PLO has spent millions of dollars paying the families of terrorists who kill innocent Israelis? That ok? How do you feel about that?


Or how do you feel about the call for a global intifada where Muslims are encouraged to kill Jews around the world? Please let me know

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Regretful. Terrible.

But I lay the blame entirely on Hamas.

Entirely? Hamas didn't drop 2000 pound dumb bombs on children.

Even if Hamas has some blame, and they do, it shows a lot about a person when they say Hamas is entirely to blame for Israel dropping dumb bombs on a building their intelligence knows has children in it.

I've read up on this thread and I'm done with it. Unlike another poster who has said he is done with it and has posted 50 times since, I actually mean it.

I sometimes wonder how the world can be so cruel and then I read people's opinions and then realize there are just evil people in this world with 0 heart or humanity.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Entirely? Hamas didn't drop 2000 pound dumb bombs on children.

Even if Hamas has some blame, and they do, it shows a lot about a person when they say Hamas is entirely to blame for Israel dropping dumb bombs on a building their intelligence knows has children in it.

I've read up on this thread and I'm done with it. Unlike another poster who has said he is done with it and has posted 50 times since, I actually mean it.

I sometimes wonder how the world can be so cruel and then I read people's opinions and then realize there are just evil people in this world with 0 heart or humanity.

Reply to my post.

I’m glad your history on this topic is based off of tik tok and reading this thread. I am sure that has given you a very well rounded view of one of the most nuanced conflicts in the world. Unlike you, some people actually have family members or friends who have to deal with the fall out of this war. You just scroll upwards on tik tok because your eyes cannot take it. But hey, I am sure you are well read on this topic and can name more than one Israeli Prime Minister. Back to Tik Tok you go! Go tell the rabid antisemites and Chinese bots on that app that this zionist says hello!

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Entirely? Hamas didn't drop 2000 pound dumb bombs on children.

Even if Hamas has some blame, and they do, it shows a lot about a person when they say Hamas is entirely to blame for Israel dropping dumb bombs on a building their intelligence knows has children in it.

I've read up on this thread and I'm done with it. Unlike another poster who has said he is done with it and has posted 50 times since, I actually mean it.

I sometimes wonder how the world can be so cruel and then I read people's opinions and then realize there are just evil people in this world with 0 heart or humanity.

Seriously, you don't have to answer Beninho's questions. His talking points have been thoroughly debunked over the last 5 months on here and in other parts of the internet. He's just going to call you an antisemite when you present facts and presume that he "won".

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Seriously, you don't have to answer Beninho's questions. His talking points have been thoroughly debunked over the last 5 months on here and in other parts of the internet. He's just going to call you an antisemite when you present facts and presume that he "won".

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-tr...up-inside/amp/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_...0hospitals.%22

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale...for%20the%20PA.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran...proxy_conflict

So many Zionist lies

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Beninho

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-tr...up-inside/amp/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_...0hospitals.%22

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale...for%20the%20PA.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran...proxy_conflict

So many Zionist lies

The first article we can all assume is a blatant lie.

Next 3 are Wikipedia articles that also discuss the other side of the argument. So thanks for sharing. Was this supposed to be your mic drop moment?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

The first article we can all assume is a blatant lie.

Next 3 are Wikipedia articles that also discuss the other side of the argument. So thanks for sharing. Was this supposed to be your mic drop moment?

Congrats on your monumental victory today Q, such a huge step towards a state. Israel I think is going to stop the war I think because Canada told them they were mad that they were winning. Hamas really accomplishing so much in the last 5 months

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Congrats on your monumental victory today Q, such a huge step towards a state. Israel I think is going to stop the war I think because Canada told them they were mad that they were winning. Hamas really accomplishing so much in the last 5 months

How's all this winning working out for you? Your state has turned into a pariah and Hamas still has your captives. Unless the higher civilian body count is your idea of winning, in that case, Israel is definitely beating Hamas there.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

How's all this winning working out for you? Your state has turned into a pariah and Hamas still has your captives. Unless the higher civilian body count is your idea of winning, in that case, Israel is definitely beating Hamas there.

Palestinian society has never been further away from a state. You understand that right. Decades upon decades of the same zero sum game where a war is waged and Palestinian independence and peace gets pushed back further and further. There has not been one war where the Palestinians have waged that has actually made the situation better for the Palestinians. It makes absolutely no sense but there does not seem to be any reason with whomever the Palestinians elect to represent them. Whether its the PLO, Fatah, Hamas, they all care more about destroying Israel then actually creating a functional society for their people to live in, and what they all have actually collectively done is destroy any hope for a Palestinian nation.

The outcome of this war will have Hamas militarily destroyed leaving the Palestinians to again have a choice on continuing to prop up a new Hamas and to continue a pointless war with Israel and we can repeat this in a decade or so, or the Palestinians can do what has never been done and collectively try to only focus on creating a society that is not consumed with the destruction of Israel.

Israel of course will leave the war with bad PR but Israel has never had good PR and still has existed. So nothing changes and things only get worse for the Palestinians. Unless this time Palestinians recognize how ridiculously pointless and destructive war with Israel is and maybe just maybe move on from 1948

So how is losing working out for the Palestinians? Israel looks bad? A bunch of people online making really angry statements towards Israel? What exactly has changed that was different before the war? Nothing, except Palestinians are even further from a state.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

But I lay the blame entirely on Hamas.

Course you do.
Anything to justify the slaughter of thousands of children.
That'll be a great defence at ICJ.
It was Hamas. Hamas made men do it

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

I've had to close my tik tok account because I couldn't stand to see the atrocities commited against the Palestinians. Little children massacred. Some alive with horrible burns and limbs cut off without anesthesia.

Such a cruel world we live in. Israel will have to answer to their genocidal war crimes one-day.

I have been watching this war since the 70's, no one will answer for anything, Israel will spend a few years getting told it over reacted, Hamas will retire to lives of luxury in Tunisia or the like, in the end other than the deaths nothing will have changed, Palestine will have to live within the meager boundaries it has now, Gaza will be poorer for decades, the West Bank will lose more land, there will be no 2 state solution.