Brad Treliving needs to go

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Some people on here really come across as jerks. We are all fans of the same team. Does it make you feel like a bigger person to be a total jerk to another fan of the same team?

Not to excuse anyone, including myself, but this is what happens when you spend five months pursuing a player that everyone agrees has been missing for 25 years, and then come up short because the perception is you cheaped out.

The fans would’ve accepted a high acquisition cost. They would have respected the balls. The naysayers would have naysought, and maybe they would have been right, but at least there’d be a reasonable chance that a 0.95 PPG MacKinnon/Matthews tier player would be in the lineup before seasons end.

Tuch, Krebs, 1st and 3rd.

It’s easy to say “well Buffalo wanted Krebs more”. Or “Tuch is the true centrepiece.”

If they never had any offer on the table that was better than that, in both quantity and quality, they wasted everyone’s time. They should have withdrawn their name from contention months ago.

So people are pissed. And they’re right to be.

That’s no reason to be disrespectful to other posters - they didn’t not make the deal.

Try Hard didn’t.

But it is what it is.

Be respectful to your fellow posters, everyone.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Oh, but you are smart enough to see that.

Whatever it is you pretend to do for a living must come with a pretty good salary because I think most GM’s are in the 7-digits. AGM’s and other execs probably well into the six digits,

You should get in there given that you are really really smart and all that.

Does that mean Treliving is god and none of us should have an opinion?

Asking for a friend

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Look, I’m not saying it’s not a pickle.

But they have four core forwards, two core defensemen, and a goalie locked up for the foreseeable future. Philosophically, I don’t think you want your core to be larger than four forwards and two D anyway.

In a do or die, tie it up or go home scenario, you can only have 6 guys on the ice anyway. And nobody but Brent Sutter would try 3F 3D with the goalie out.

So it makes more sense to spend your resources on the 4th forward. They play closer to the net and might actually score the goal to keep you alive - Eichel, Stone, Karlsson, Patches, Pietrangelo, and Theodore is a frightening task to defend in the last minute of a game.

Karlsson is the shortest, at 6 ft 1, and they’re all over 200lbs. That’s a lot of beef to look past if you’re an opposing goalie. All six are extremely high-skill players, they skate well, they can all score from distance.

All four forwards are 30-goal players.

Vegas will trade what they have to to make themselves compliant, and in doing so recoup some of the prospect capital they’ve lost in these deals. They knew that going in.

We would have had a variant of the same problem had Try Hard closed the deal, and it would have been a good problem to have.

This just ignores the point of what we're talking about, which is that depth is going to be a huge issue for Vegas. It's great they have 6 killer players (most 30+), but there's a minimum of 18 spots they need to fill. It's great they have a whole line and one pairing that will be an absolute nightmare, but even if they play the #### out of that line every night, that's still half the game or more where someone else is going to play hockey for Vegas... and they don't have a whole lot of someone else right now and are going to struggle to fill those spots with anything good.

To the bolded specifically... well, they might recoup some prospect capital... maybe. Tampa Bay had to send a 2nd with Johnson to acquire a LTIR player that would help them fit in cap-wise. So it's just as likely they lose even more prospect capital becoming compliant. Who is helping them out?

Just to be clear, it's not that Eichel isn't a big get for them. He is. It's not that we should be so lucky we missed out, we shouldn't. And it's not that the Flames wouldn't have had some variation of that issue to work out, they would have (though much, much better suited to deal with it than Vegas, based on our overall contract situation).

The point is that the Vegas people see right now, the Vegas that went to the conference finals two years ago, is not the Vegas that is going into next year. This was a team that was tough to play against through the lineup. It's going to be a top-heavy team with bad depth. It isn't just Eichel that caused it, but he's certainly the contract that removes any illusion of that transition being complete. They've entered Toronto and Edmonton territory (and post cup-win Chicago, for that matter), and we'll see how it goes for them. Lehner alone may ensure their fortunes are different. Amazingly, they entered that territory faster than Tampa Bay, but Tampa Bay got two cups out of their journey there (LTIR was a gift, of course). Vegas has this year to be as stacked a team as they are if everyone comes back at the start of the playoffs. Otherwise they just won't be.

Do I wish the Flames had this problem to figure out? Sure. But we can realistically say the Flames would have had an easier time figuring it out, and that Vegas of 2022-23 may not be better than the Vegas team that went to the conference finals, and might not be for the duration of Eichel's contract.

[GreenLantern2814]

^^^Vegas has had depth their whole existence.

Now they’re rolling the dice on stars.

When Eichel returns, they’ll have two pairs of high end forwards - my example was focused on the last minute when they need a goal to tie.

I understand all the reasons it couldn’t work or won’t work - I simply don’t think those reasons are sufficient to not make the move.

On either Vegas’ side or ours.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Team needs that elite 1C
Team needs that elite 1C
Vegas was in love with Krebs and Tuch and we were at a disadvantage because of that
But team needs that elite 1C.

Its a failure by Brad, no way around that. These players just don't come around often. You don't even know when the next one will. You have to take advantage of it. Have to.

Super depressing to come up short after the past three months of hanging around it.

We're back to drafting and developing. And none of our center prospects have that kind of pedigree or upside.

We screwed the pooch here, and the cost is another stretch of years where we're looking at 1-2 rounds of playoffs at best.

Going the route of Arizona next year is now the only way to get this thing built right if Gaudreau doesn't re-sign.

Eichel was our chance to give our window a shot in the arm for the next 5 years. Now, unless Mangiapane/Dube/Zary/Pelletier/Coronato have elite top end in them (highly unlikely), we're only going to regress over time as the current group expires and leaves.

This is utter is nonsense.

No one here knows what the Flames offer was. BUF wanted Krebs, that much is clear. Tuch was also an attractive asset given he’s local to the area and under team control at a good cap hit for a 25 year old top six 6’4” 220 lbs RHS RW who can move and has hands. Tuch is a guy ready to pop. In Vegas he was behind Stone, Patches, Marchessault, Smith. So what do the Flames have that would entice BUF to take their offer instead? Mangiapane? Different player and fits a different profile. Mang is also due a raise, a big one. Dube? Big question mark there. I’m hopeful, but I think it is fair to say Tuch has shown more all things considered. Adams has spoke publicly about changing the culture of the Sabres. Like the Flames, they are going to have to be somewhat strategic about who they bring in. Having a local guy, or two, is going to be of benefit. Buffalo isn’t dumb. They knew what they wanted, who could likely give them what they wanted and short of some team falling over themselves, which seems like you are advocating the Flames should have done, they were going to get it.

How do you know what implications the Flames will face because they didn’t land Eichel? Why are you, and others, catastrophizing this? You don’t think other high end players will be available? Case in point, did you predict Jack Eichel was going to be traded at the beginning of the 2020 season? If you did, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. But then tell us, whose next? Who is the next elite player to be traded and what the Flames should do to acquire said player? Dust off that crystal ball.

I had hoped the Flames would find a way to land Eichel as well, but if BUF didn’t want what the Flames were offering, comparatively speaking, then what were they going to do? Punt on the season? not this organization, if you’re paying attention. Neuter their organizational depth so that you might be good enough to compete by the time Eichel’s deal is close to a close? Hmmmm, wonder why they didn’t do that.

Saying Treliving failed misses the mark. Failed what, exactly?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Not to excuse anyone, including myself, but this is what happens when you spend five months pursuing a player that everyone agrees has been missing for 25 years, and then come up short because the perception is you cheaped out.

The fans would’ve accepted a high acquisition cost. They would have respected the balls. The naysayers would have naysought, and maybe they would have been right, but at least there’d be a reasonable chance that a 0.95 PPG MacKinnon/Matthews tier player would be in the lineup before seasons end.

Tuch, Krebs, 1st and 3rd.

It’s easy to say “well Buffalo wanted Krebs more”. Or “Tuch is the true centrepiece.”

If they never had any offer on the table that was better than that, in both quantity and quality, they wasted everyone’s time. They should have withdrawn their name from contention months ago.

So people are pissed. And they’re right to be.

That’s no reason to be disrespectful to other posters - they didn’t not make the deal.

Try Hard didn’t.

But it is what it is.

Be respectful to your fellow posters, everyone.

What a great idea, then Vegas would have got him for less

[GreenLantern2814]

I suppose one could argue that if WE all knew Vegas wanted Krebs, maybe the GM of the team could’ve put together a package with enough surplus value to convince Buffalo to trade the player here.

All he would have had to do is look at what Vegas had the capacity to offer, and made sure his offer was undeniably better.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by dino7c

What a great idea, then Vegas would have got him for less

They had to give up one prospect and a late 1st this year.

Buffalo could’ve held out for that regardless - Carolina was sniffing around to the end for this reason, but you didn’t hear their names bandied about until after the deal was done.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

The GMs are mostly an old boys club, promoted through cronyism. There are many here on CP that would be better than Treliving I have no doubt

Seems I struck a nerve lol. You sound like Brad's your dad or something lol. Sorry I insulted daddy haha

The fact that you see income as being a reflection of intelligence or capability is pretty telling though.

The fact you are questioning the intelligence of others is also telling. Have you met Treliving and/or Flames executives? How close to them are you and how are you making this judgment? Why would you suggest they are not capable of recognizing something that common sense should make apparent. You don’t think they understand good hockey players playing with other good hockey players usually yields positive results? What are you trying to say other than your vapid comment of ‘they’re dumb’.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

They had to give up one prospect and a late 1st this year.

Buffalo could’ve held out for that regardless - Carolina was sniffing around to the end for this reason, but you didn’t hear their names bandied about until after the deal was done.

And that's Brad's fault...every trade has Canadian teams rumored...its called clickbait

Tuch had 33 points in 56 games last year (would be 4th on the Flames in scoring) and you don't even mention him, also a hometown hero

You seem more than a little biased here

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by TOfan

The fact you are questioning the intelligence of others is also telling. Have you met Treliving and/or Flames executives? How close to them are you and how are you making this judgment? Why would you suggest they are not capable of recognizing something that common sense should make apparent. You don’t think they understand good hockey players playing with other good hockey players usually yields positive results? What are you trying to say other than your vapid comment of ‘they’re dumb’.

I'm evaluating them based on their track record of course. Their below average, uninspiring and unimaginative track record.

After 8 years...

No true 1C

No true 1D

Maybe a 1G but Markstrom's career does not indicate elite

Overpaying in every trade except the Hamilton trades

Overvaluing depth players

Awful record in UFA

Playoff record

Inability to plan more than one year out

Inability to get a good head coach until Sutter. Even then, that's probably ownership

Not sure what you Boston Pizza fans see in the guy but he was voted the second best GM in team history here for some reason lol

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

^^^Vegas has had depth their whole existence.

Now they’re rolling the dice on stars.

When Eichel returns, they’ll have two pairs of high end forwards - my example was focused on the last minute when they need a goal to tie.

I understand all the reasons it couldn’t work or won’t work - I simply don’t think those reasons are sufficient to not make the move.

On either Vegas’ side or ours.

Me neither. I just don't really fear the next five years of Vegas. This year is going to be dangerous IF they manage to pull a Tampa in terms of injuries lining up for playoffs. But after I'm truly interested in how it's going to work out for them, because they do have a solid goalie, but it has yet to work out for any team that has tried it so far with the top of their roster that heavily paid.

Doesn't help that of all the guys they could consider moving to help their salary issue, Patches, Karlsson, Dadonov, Martinez, and March all have modified NTC.

Teams should be circling Vegas. 1-2 of those guys are going to go for a song to a team not on that list.

[Azhouse]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Not sure what you Boston Pizza fans see in the guy but he was voted the second best GM in team history here for some reason lol

Wellll we have had a lot of bad GMs here...

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If they never had any offer on the table that was better than that, in both quantity and quality, they wasted everyone’s time. They should have withdrawn their name from contention months ago.

Nope. I'm frustrated that the Flames didn't get Eichel, and think they should have been able to beat that offer, but this is still just a take that I don't understand.

Treliving isn't wasting anybody's time but his own by being involved in the deal. The fan base getting excited about a possible trade or following the rumor threads should be the last thing on his mind.

If he made a decision that he shouldn't even be involved in the trade discussions because he's worried that the fans will be mad if he's rumored to make a move and then finishes as runner up and doesn't want to be seen as falling short then that would be a much worse move.

There is value to the Flames on him being involved...maybe the Flames being part of that discussion is the whole reason Vegas needed to finally include Krebs to get the deal done.

Based on what's come out from McFarland, LeBrun, and Friedman in the last 24 hours it sounds like the Flames had a very attractive offer on the table, that some would consider better than the Knights offer. Rumors appear to indicate that Buffalo really overvalued Krebs and Tuch, sometimes that just happens and the other team just has players the other GM likes better. Krebs was seen as the top prospect from both teams, Tuch is a big, young forward with ties to the Buffalo area. If they overvalued that then the Flames didn't have similar pieces.

The idea that finishing as runner up is somehow worse than not being involved at all is so ridiculous. Especially when it's a division rival in the trade talks. Even if it just means they had to spend more than they wanted to in the end that's still a better result than just doing nothing.

I'm don't give a crap if Treliving is rumored in every deal and finishes as runner up on all of them, still better than not being involved at all.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by Azhouse

Wellll we have had a lot of bad GMs here...

Sutter was better. Did more with less. Went insane at the end of course and that's all anyone remembers. Didn't even have a farm team or much of a scouting department but he made us relevant pretty much instantly. Meanwhile BT is elevated above him despite worse results with more tools at his disposal.

A few fans even voted BP as the best GM in team history over Fletcher lol

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

I'm evaluating them based on their track record of course. Their below average, uninspiring and unimaginative track record.

After 8 years...

No true 1C

No true 1D Gio?

Maybe a 1G but Markstrom's career does not indicate elite Kevin Woodley might disagree

Overpaying in every trade except the Hamilton trades Aside from Hamonic, debatable. Treliving overpay for the picks that netted Andersson and Dube?

Overvaluing depth players seems to be working out this year

Awful record in UFA Markstrom, Tanev, Frolik, Rittich, Ryan, Talbot, we’re all positive. Sure, some have been regrettable but on the whole, it has been fine.

Playoff record

Inability to plan more than one year out elaborate, please

Inability to get a good head coach until Sutter. Even then, that's probably ownership how so? If ownership made the decision, why is Treliving still the GM?

Not sure what you Boston Pizza fans see in the guy but he was voted the second best GM in team history here for some reason lol

Some pretty flimsy stuff here, Theo.

[Azhouse]

Ya. I thought Sutter's trades to bring in role guys who could make an impact before the 04 run were genius.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Overpaying in every trade except the Hamilton trades

Really it's the opposite. The only trade he overpaid was the Hamonic trade (which was a severe overpay)

Honestly the issue with him might be he hasn't been willing to overpay to bring in an impact player.

If anything his reluctance to overpay is why we've moved a bunch of 2nd and 3rd round picks to bring in guys that were cheaper to acquire but not actually impact players.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Some pretty flimsy stuff here, Theo.

Didn't realize Gio is still on the Flames.

[GioforPM]

One of the many problems with Treliving “withdrawing from contention” (which is ridiculous) because they couldn’t beat the Krebs/Tuch offer is that by all accounts Krebs was a late addition this week that pushed Vegas over the goal line.