[Trade] Flames trade Mangiapane to Capitals for COL 2025 2nd

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Absolutely. Other than CAR, the top contenders in the league (FLA, TOR, COL, VGK, TBL) have traded away most of their 1st and 2nd round picks for years. It’s the standard operating procedure in the league today, when contention windows only last 4-6 seasons.

The Avs, for instance, have no 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round picks in the 2025 or 2026 drafts. They didn’t make a 1st round pick in 2022 or 2024 either, and have traded away the player they drafted in the 1st round in 2023. You’ll see similar stories with the other contenders.

The Panthers traded away their 1st round pick in 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, and 2026. The Lightning traded away their 1st round pick in 2020, 2021, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, and 2027.

The Stars are somewhat more conservative, having only traded away their 2023 1st, 2024 2nd, 2025 1st and 2nd, and 2026 1st. Same with the Oilers, who have only traded their 2021, 2022, and 2025 2nds, and 2023, 2025, and 2026 1sts.

Yeah but those teams have won cups or on the cusp of winning a cup. Treliving made those moves for an unfinished team that was on a rotation of making the playoffs/missing the playoffs the next season. The Flames needed difference makers to get to where the teams you listed were and he traded a lot of assets for depth players that never moved the needle. He's doing the same thing today in Toronto as the guys he traded top prospects and 1st round picks accomplished nothing for the Leafs in the playoffs. He's not a good GM.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

A lot of GM’s trade picks for depth players
A lot of GM’s trade 1st rounders for shut down Dmen
Some GM’s have 7 head coaches who work for them in 11 years in the role
I am sure another GM has lost a top 10 scorer for nothing in free agency before but has there been a GM who has lost 2? If Marner walks that is the case with Brad.

You say he is an average (maybe above average?) GM.

I think he is one of the worst.

Agree to disagree

I don't think I've said anything in this discussion about being above average.

Just saying he's not in the dregs of franchise history.

And clearly we disagree!

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah but those teams have won cups or on the cusp of winning a cup. Treliving made those moves for an unfinished team that was on a rotation of making the playoffs/missing the playoffs the next season. The Flames needed difference makers to get to where the teams you listed were and he traded a lot of assets for depth players that never moved the needle. He's doing the same thing today in Toronto as the guys he traded top prospects and 1st round picks accomplished nothing for the Leafs in the playoffs. He's not a good GM.

To me, this is a fair criticism. The Flames, at that time, pronouns have exercised some restraint and continued to build through the draft. That’s, of course, easier to say now with the benefit of hindsight. At the time though, the Flames took their shot. Goes without saying that all involved probably wanted more.

Conroy had a front row seat through it all. Here’s hoping the Flames will be better off for it. What I think is Conroy has, probably, this upcoming season and next to accumulate picks/prospects/young players. I suspect though that by the time we hit the summer before the new building internal pressure with increase to get the Flames in the playoffs and ‘competitive’. That could happen naturally with good drafting and development but if they fall short there, I’ll bet we see the same or similar strategy that Treliving utilized in his time here leveraging draft capital and UFA signings to bolster the roster.

[Shazam]

All Tre had to do was exercise restraint:

Not trade for Hamonic.
Not sign Brouwer.
Not sign Neal.
Not trade for Jarnkrok.
Not trade Monahan.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I never realized that the 3rd they traded for Jarnkrok (along with a 2nd and 7th) somehow made it's way back to Calgary (3 trades later) and was used to pick Aydar Suniev.

Jarnkrok was a guy that a lot of people had been suggesting the Flames acquire. I think what people don't like is the price perhaps, but he was a name that came up regularly as a guy the Flames should try and get. That and the fact he really didn't play well here.

[Shazam]

I'm sure there's lots of players that get suggested by people.

As a GM you have to ask yourself: is whoever I'm getting going to move the needle?

[PepsiFree]

The narrative around Jarnkrok is bizarre to me. He absolutely played well here, he just had no luck on the scoresheet. All of his other numbers, from advanced stats to things like faceoffs, put him as one of the best all around forwards on the team during his 17 games here. He came nearly as advertised, with a few less points than expected.

He was worth the price. The mistake came when Treliving decided not to bother re-signing him.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah but those teams have won cups or on the cusp of winning a cup. Treliving made those moves for an unfinished team that was on a rotation of making the playoffs/missing the playoffs the next season. The Flames needed difference makers to get to where the teams you listed were and he traded a lot of assets for depth players that never moved the needle. He's doing the same thing today in Toronto as the guys he traded top prospects and 1st round picks accomplished nothing for the Leafs in the playoffs. He's not a good GM.

He thought he had a contending core in Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Monahan, Lindholm, Backlund, Giordano, Hanifin, Brody, Smith. Maybe he overvalued his roster and rushed their contention window.

In Toronto he absolutely has a contending core. You don’t wait until after you’ve won a Cup to push your chips in (though Cup-winning teams like TBL and COL do keep pushing their chips in to keep their contending window open).

And if you look at the picks traded away by contending teams, most of them were for depth guys and rentals. Opposing GMs typically don’t deal away young difference makers with term in exchange for 25th to 32nd overall picks. There are exceptions, like Seth Jones.

Are Joe Sakic and Chris MacFarland bad at their jobs because the Avs dealt away 1st round picks and top prospects for rentals Sean Walker and Brock Nelson, only to get bounced in the first round both times? Is Bill Zito a bad GM because he traded away a 1st and a top prospect in Owen Tippet for a few weeks of Claude Giroux, only to lose in the 2nd round?

There’s a big element of gambling in running an NHL team, and most moves are made to nudge the odds of winning a Cup 1 or 2 per cent higher. And most of them fail, because only one team wins the Cup.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The narrative around Jarnkrok is bizarre to me. He absolutely played well here, he just had no luck on the scoresheet. All of his other numbers, from advanced stats to things like faceoffs, put him as one of the best all around forwards on the team during his 17 games here. He came nearly as advertised, with a few less points than expected.

He was worth the price. The mistake came when Treliving decided not to bother re-signing him.

A whole lot of people wanted him here. But they also had him pegged as a centre. So kind of a confused fanbase on that one.

But the “didn’t show restraint” stuff is funny as well because there’s also a large portion of “he’s in on everything but never gets the deal” critics too.

[Jason14h]

Any player suggested here is the new greatest player ever and everyone immediately has scouted them forever !

I hope the GM has a better strategy to team building

And that’s exactly what I don’t think Tre ever did

He chased the next shiny object . He never identified what the Flames wanted to be and stuck to that direction .

He bled mid assets for mid players instead of going all in for better assets - TB might not have any firsts but they make aggressive moves for players they target with control for their system and nail those trades

When Tre did do this - Hamilton and Hamonic - it was mixed results . The Hamilton trade made sense - try to acquire a 22 year old anchor for D

The Hamonic trade ? What part of the Flames identity were we trying to build ? A D core first (without a goalie ??) A tougher team ? Who really knows. It felt like he got him because he was available(and Van and Edm were rumored to be in on him ) not because he fit into a long term vision of what the Flames needed to be - because I dont believe Tre ever really knew what that was

When I look at the whole of his work individual moves were probably good on the whole . But the sum is greater then the parts was a complete failure .

It actually reminds me of this board where every name that comes up should be looked at “depending on price “ . It just isn’t true . Buying something that doesn’t fit into the long term plan - or too many similar pieces leaves you eventually out of assets and out of moves to make with an average team

And that’s what happened with Tre over the years .

[GioforPM]

He got Hamonic because he was relatively low salary, was a defensive RHS who he thought would complement Brodie (because he wanted a Hamilton-Gio top pairing).

Meaning he had a plan for the D, which obviously didn't wok and which peolple can disagree with, but it wasn't the case that he had no plan at all.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

But the “didn’t show restraint” stuff is funny as well because there’s also a large portion of “he’s in on everything but never gets the deal” critics too.

The two things are the same.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Shazam

The two things are the same.

Well, no they aren't. Being in on deals but not outbidding others is restraint.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, no they aren't. Being in on deals but not outbidding others is restraint.

Whatever. Flames may not have had anything the other team wanted.

I mean yeah I guess Tre not offering five first round pics for a player shows restraint lol.

[SuperMatt18]

Hamonic and Neal are the two moves that stand out to me.

Even Brouwer I kind of get...his plan I think was Brouwer-Bennett-Tkachuk would be a thing, but it just didn't work in pre-season and early in that season.

Hamonic I never liked the move...you didn't need to pay a premium to get a player with a lower cap hit at that time. You had already moved assets for Hamilton as a RH d-man, you had just also traded for Stone who was a RH dman, and you had drafted Andersson, Fox, and Kylington. You didn't need to spend those assets on a d-man.

Neal...the part I didn't like was giving Neal that contract when you know you needed to re-sign Tkachuk the following offseason. Lacked the foresight to leave some cap space open for the required raises to Tkachuk and others on that roster that year.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Hamonic and Neal are the two moves that stand out to me.

Even Brouwer I kind of get...his plan I think was Brouwer-Bennett-Tkachuk would be a thing, but it just didn't work in pre-season and early in that season.

Hamonic I never liked the move...you didn't need to pay a premium to get a player with a lower cap hit at that time. You had already moved assets for Hamilton as a RH d-man, you had just also traded for Stone who was a RH dman, and you had drafted Andersson, Fox, and Kylington. You didn't need to spend those assets on a d-man.

Neal...the part I didn't like was giving Neal that contract when you know you needed to re-sign Tkachuk the following offseason. Lacked the foresight to leave some cap space open for the required raises to Tkachuk and others on that roster that year.

The concept of Neal wasn't bad. Big RHS RW sniper to complement Gaudreau and Monahan (I think Lindholm was to be 2C/2RW and play with Tkachuk and Bennett). But they didn't look into Neal off ice enough - just his counting stats which were good.

Hamonic - the plan was like I said above, and I don't think the new draft picks of Andersson, Kylington and Fox really should havebeen a consideration - they were years away and might not pan out (as it turned out only one did).

So I disagree with people who say Treliving had no plan or vision of the team. He did, and people can criticize what that plan was all you want. But it strikes me that people who are saying he had no plan really mean he didn't have their plan.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The concept of Neal wasn't bad. Big RHS RW sniper to complement Gaudreau and Monahan (I think Lindholm was to be 2C/2RW and play with Tkachuk and Bennett). But they didn't look into Neal off ice enough - just his counting stats which were good.

Hamonic - the plan was like I said above, and I don't think the new draft picks of Andersson, Kylington and Fox really should havebeen a consideration - they were years away and might not pan out (as it turned out only one did).

So I disagree with people who say Treliving had no plan or vision of the team. He did, and people can criticize what that plan was all you want. But it strikes me that people who are saying he had no plan really mean he didn't have their plan.

Your confusing plans on individual moves vs a plan for the team IMO

Getting Hamonic to be your 4th D by paying multiple high assets when the team had other much bigger holes just because he’s available and Edm and Van are in on him isn’t a plan for the team . Sure it gets Brodie a partner . Yaaay . Now we have given up premium draft picks for a 4th D, and also blocked any young D as we have 4 D locked into our core for the foreseeable future .

He never had a vision of what he wanted the Flames as a team to be and how to get there (or if he did I have no clue what it was and he certainly didn’t execute it well )

What was his plan for the Calgary Flames to win the cup in his tenure ? What type of team did he want to build ?

[Ba'alzamon]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The concept of Neal wasn't bad. Big RHS RW sniper to complement Gaudreau and Monahan

Neal is a left-shot.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Your confusing plans on individual moves vs a plan for the team IMO

Getting Hamonic to be your 4th D by paying multiple high assets when the team had other much bigger holes just because he’s available and Edm and Van are in on him isn’t a plan for the team . Sure it gets Brodie a partner . Yaaay . Now we have given up premium draft picks for a 4th D, and also blocked any young D as we have 4 D locked into our core for the foreseeable future .

He never had a vision of what he wanted the Flames as a team to be and how to get there (or if he did I have no clue what it was and he certainly didn’t execute it well )

What was his plan for the Calgary Flames to win the cup in his tenure ? What type of team did he want to build ?

Very much this. Any deal can be explained in isolation.

[Azhouse]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He's not a good GM.

I can't believe that Toronto, who wanted playoff success hired Treliving with his two playoff round wins in 9 years (the first was Feester's team). If the Leafs get rid of Marner and Taveras and give Treliving $20+ million to spend on UFAs it's going to get ugly fast. I can't wait...

To reiterate he's not a good GM.