[News] Calgary, Alberta, & CSEC agree in principle to $1.223bn Event Centre + infrastructure

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Gemnoble

Bean started barely playful then turned into an aggressive dick. Dude doesn't get the media.

Also how hard is it to throw out "Sometime around 2030".

Aggressive dick? Lol

Some people are really ####ing sensitive

[chummer]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Are you serious?

"What's the timeline"
"When will shovels be in the ground and when will it open"
"When will the Flames start playing in the arena"
"Are there phases of construction? When will the community rink open and when will the event centre open"

It was asked and answered in the first question and people still continued to ask different versions of the same question. How is Wes asking when the Flames are going to start playing in the arena when the first question and answer stated there was no timeline yet?

Yeah I'm serious, you'd think they'd have a pretty good idea what year the arena might open.

But this is your hill to die on, not mine.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

He was a dick about it lol, it's not the end of the world but the little asked and answered being all smug then walking away was a dick move.

Didn't seem mean-spirited, though, just him trying to joke around again, so the comments pretending he was storming off or mean mugging seem stupid.

If Bean is who we got then I'm embracing the awkward man for who he is.

[nik-]

god damned ACCOUNTANT!

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Bonded

The additional amenities and infrastructure will have to be significantly in Calgary’s interest to make it similar to the last deal. Murray gets a crazy break by not putting the cash up front as well.

That's the biggest/best part for Edward's. $40M up front expenditure for a $1.2B project. He's a happy man.

I am happy Calgary gets a new arena. Sorry to say I don't care who pays for it.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Give Bean the C. All the boys in the board room look up to him.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by chummer

Yeah I'm serious, you'd think they'd have a pretty good idea what year the arena might open.

But this is your hill to die on, not mine.

In case you weren't listening, they do know, the plan is in place, it's just not completely signed off officially. So when it's officially official, we will know.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Edwards and the Flames might have backed out anyways.

But I think that they did open the door for them to do so. And IMO now the Flames have a better deal, and the city has a slightly worse deal...so it feels like it worked out for the Flames but not for the city.

Completely bang on. From my perspective what happened is as follows:

- First deal was city and Flames agreed to go 50/50 essentially, with the Flames paying the overrun. Typically overrun would be expected scope creep / ballooning of some costs.

- What occurred between when the deal was signed and when the Flames backed out (facilitated by the mayor trying to force some fairly minor incremental scope creep on them that fit her mandate) is that construction costs in general went up in a crazy fashion, even before and chance for overruns. In the old agreement, Flames were on the scope for that in the "overrun" bucket.

- Agree or not, likely the Flames felt like the fair deal was closer to 50/50 with the city than it was going to end up being because of the unexpected inflation even before shovels hit the ground, so they took the open door the mayor gave them to re-negotiate.

End result of the past time since then has been two parties (the city and the Flames) who both wanted this to get back to it and save face. Today, is how they went about doing that:

- Increase the "scope of the project" and bring the province in for infrastructure costs to blur the lines.

- Expand scope beyond the arena costs, allows the City overstate their contribution and hide the actual amount contributing to the arena which is probably more than the old deal, because they aren't reporting on just the arena costs.

I know people who think Edwards and the Flames should get 0 funding won't feel this way, but if you believe that the city wanted this too, and was going to contribute big dollars regardless (like they did in the 1st deal), I actually think the Flames agreed to take one on the chin here to get this done and allow some politicians to save face.

On paper, this deal looks like the Flames are contributing way less than the public funds, because they aren't isolating the arena costs. Makes the Flames look like the bad guy in the court of public opinion, and the only reason they'd do that was to give the Mayor the ability to not get destroyed for paying more (likely key if they wanted to get it done, because the mayor couldn't be seen to lose this I'm sure), by allowing the conversation to focus on the project beyond the arena, which really has nothing to do with them.

[curves2000]

Listen, here are the details that have not been released but will get released. If we are being honest, this is how the deal will work out.

$356 million from CSEC over 35 years. So approx $10 million a year in contribution from the ownership group. Consider this "rent" or whatever.

The ownership group will keep all revenues from events at BOTH city owned buildings but will be responsible for maint/ repairs for the expected life of the building (35 years) The community rink idea is a way that ownership can have many many more events at the complex with having some public component to it. Think Flames game at the big barn and a small concert or other event the same night in the community rink. Anybody who think's this building is going to be available all the time for your kid's hockey team is dreaming. It won't.

The Flames will sell the naming rights to the highest bidder which may be able to bring in, I dunno, $5-8 million a year? Maybe even way more. Toronto is now getting $ 40 million a year for 20 years from Scotiabank.

Ticket tax: The Flames will collect this as part of their management of the facility to help offset costs.

Development rights: The Flames will be given a chance to buy and develop a lot of land in the area for their personal benefit. Hotels, bars, dancehalls, office towers, public space for other events etc. That's why the question was asked in the Q&A and it was said to be "commercially sensitive"

So bottom line is that the city buckled like no other. Thank you to our provincial and city officials for not only getting this deal done but actually paying some of the wealthiest people in the world to do this deal. Virtually no actual money flowing out from ownership that won't be re-couped in another avenue directly as stated above. This is a mathematical certainty and isn't up for debate.

I have zero issues with the project except that the people who will benefit from it from a financial perspective are paying nothing for it and in some ways, are actually getting paid for doing it. What a load of garbage for the taxpayer's. Ironically we are already discussing expanding Edmonton's money making machine for another billionaire who got his for virtually free and than bought himself a $125 million USD home in LA.

[Frequitude]

Who will cover overruns?

Maybe I missed it but I didn’t hear that addressed and was surprised it wasn’t asked.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Muta

Yep. The previous sports district concept was $400M less, and included a new arena, 40,000 seat indoor stadium, community arena and site works. Crazy how much things have changed since then.

But hard to believe that would have gotten done without massive cost overruns.

[Faust]

How much did ticket prices increase in Edmonton after the new arena was completed and is it safe to assume that Flames ticket prices are also set to jump significantly in the new arena once it has opened?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Who will cover overruns?

Maybe I missed it but I didn’t hear that addressed and was surprised it wasn’t asked.

If I'm the flames I'm walking away at cost overruns again and aiming for a cool $2B next time.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Faust

How much did ticket prices increase in Edmonton after the new arena was completed and is it safe to assume that Flames ticket prices are also set to jump significantly in the new arena once it has opened?

25-40%

Yes

[topfiverecords]

Enclosed plaza means they're going to do that thing the Oilers do where you pay to be in the arena, but watch the game on a screen in the lobby.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Who will cover overruns?

Maybe I missed it but I didn’t hear that addressed and was surprised it wasn’t asked.

I'm going to guess the city for any portion that the province's responsibilities don't cover.

[traptor]

Originally Posted by flambers

City is getting the green LRT, new roads, wider roads, investors (i.e. hotels etc)

Province is not investing in the arena, rather its infrastructure (roads,)

These infrastructure projects were going to occur either way.

To link them together is a great idea.

It looks like they're getting an event center, parking, a plaza, on-site public realm?, community rink (flames practice rink) and transportation/infrastructure to support all this. All the infrastructure is to support this complex. CSEC is paying 25%. That's a steal for them.

Not sure where there's funding going towards the green line? Has this been released? The roads are all getting worked on to support the arena... there's studies that show gain to the city from new investments after a new arena is built are limited.

It's a ####ty deal for the city and province. Billionaires making away like bandits.

[You Need a Thneed]

The infrastructure included in the cost may make the number look higher, but it is related and is essential.

It is nice to have the 6th Street underpass included, as that was very much needed to support the green line station and the event centre, and that isn’t a cheap project.

There’s $238 million set aside for transportation and area upgrades, and the green line is already funded elsewhere. That’s a lot of upgrading to the area, and is money the city would be spending whether it was included in todays announced number or not.

Altogether, I’m not sure if the city is putting more money combined towards this whole area than under the previous deal, even though it’s easy to read it that they are paying a lot more.

Before it was $300 million plus undetermined costs for underpass and further upgrades to rivers district (which could have been $200 million or more). Now it’s $500 million but includes those things.

Initial observations only, may not be completely correct.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Completely bang on. From my perspective what happened is as follows:

- First deal was city and Flames agreed to go 50/50 essentially, with the Flames paying the overrun. Typically overrun would be expected scope creep / ballooning of some costs.

- What occurred between when the deal was signed and when the Flames backed out (facilitated by the mayor trying to force some fairly minor incremental scope creep on them that fit her mandate) is that construction costs in general went up in a crazy fashion, even before and chance for overruns. In the old agreement, Flames were on the scope for that in the "overrun" bucket.

- Agree or not, likely the Flames felt like the fair deal was closer to 50/50 with the city than it was going to end up being because of the unexpected inflation even before shovels hit the ground, so they took the open door the mayor gave them to re-negotiate.

End result of the past time since then has been two parties (the city and the Flames) who both wanted this to get back to it and save face. Today, is how they went about doing that:

- Increase the "scope of the project" and bring the province in for infrastructure costs to blur the lines.

- Expand scope beyond the arena costs, allows the City overstate their contribution and hide the actual amount contributing to the arena which is probably more than the old deal, because they aren't reporting on just the arena costs.

I know people who think Edwards and the Flames should get 0 funding won't feel this way, but if you believe that the city wanted this too, and was going to contribute big dollars regardless (like they did in the 1st deal), I actually think the Flames agreed to take one on the chin here to get this done and allow some politicians to save face.

On paper, this deal looks like the Flames are contributing way less than the public funds, because they aren't isolating the arena costs. Makes the Flames look like the bad guy in the court of public opinion, and the only reason they'd do that was to give the Mayor the ability to not get destroyed for paying more (likely key if they wanted to get it done, because the mayor couldn't be seen to lose this I'm sure), by allowing the conversation to focus on the project beyond the arena, which really has nothing to do with them.

They were going to walk away no matter what. They would have came up with a different excuse if they couldn't have used the one they did. You can buy the PR that the mayor did something to cause it - but like you said -the Flames were going to figure out a way to walk away no matter what.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jordan!

He’s still getting an unreal deal.

Shows how fair and amazing the Tempe deal is from the coyotes AND it’s going to a city vote.

How does Edwards get away with this stuff??

Fair AND amazing. Impressive.

What's not so amazing is taxpayers paying to defend a massive lawsuit over the development.