Ongoing US Mass Shooting Thread 2

[2Stonedbirds]

The listed effective ranges between the m16 and AR are misleading at best and flat out wrong.

Claiming the AR15 round is "devastating" is funny/sad considering the rifle is available in a plethora of chamberings, all with different velocities and pounds per square inch. Cant hunt game with it up here because its unethical. But yeah, it shoots coke cans.
Never mind a slower round out of a shorter barrel, IE customizing.

NewEra, the m14 and m1a is not an incredibly accurate rifle. Baseline for an acceptable rack grade rifle for the US military was 7 moa. Minute of pie plate. Chasing accuracy out of that platform requires specific knowledge and deep pockets. Kick like a mule is not how I would describe it at all, not even close. Far less kick than the same round out of grandadddies m700 bolt.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

The listed effective ranges between the m16 and AR are misleading at best and flat out wrong.

Claiming the AR15 round is "devastating" is funny/sad considering the rifle is available in a plethora of chamberings, all with different velocities and pounds per square inch. Cant hunt game with it up here because its unethical. But yeah, it shoots coke cans.
Never mind a slower round out of a shorter barrel, IE customizing.

NewEra, the m14 and m1a is not an incredibly accurate rifle. Baseline for an acceptable rack grade rifle for the US military was 7 moa. Minute of pie plate. Chasing accuracy out of that platform requires specific knowledge and deep pockets. Kick like a mule is not how I would describe it at all, not even close. Far less kick than the same round out of grandadddies m700 bolt.

And literally none of these details are in any way important, because people keep dying.

It really is pretty simple. Gatekeeping people based on your nerd-cred when it comes to gun specifications is just idiotic.

[2Stonedbirds]

If you want to have a discussion based on facts, then let's at least get the facts correct?
I'm not going to stop your hand wringing.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Yes, let's also discuss the volume of water in the Pacific ocean while we're at it!

Facts are great. Irrelevant facts - like the relative accuracy of the M14 or the measurement figure used to determine that accuracy - are just noise. Why does anything you're saying matter whatsoever in the context of a mass murder (or, in this case, several mass murders)?

[2Stonedbirds]

It helps people from cringing, mostly.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

If people are cringing because those with a real, honest desire to solve the problem of people dying in droves don't know what "minute of pie plate" means, then let me be what I can only hope is not the first to say #### those people.

Again, I'm all for facts and information, provided that those facts and that information are instrumental to finding a better solution to the problem (without allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good). The understanding of the difference between an automatic and a semi automatic rifle seems like important information, as does a good grasp on magazine limits. But there's a bunch of meaningless crap flying around that serves only to effectively try to exclude those people who want a solution from the conversation because they aren't gun nuts... ahem, "firearm enthusiasts". That's, again, idiotic.

[Wormius]

Maybe you should just have to prove that you need a specific gun. Write a freaking essay on why that particular weapon meets a realistic requirement that a Daisy or Winchester doesn’t satisfy.

[Thor]

Nothing will ever happen until you remove money from politics, try to end this divisive partisanship in the US, which seems next to impossible.

[afc wimbledon]

Small point of order, the M 16 was always chambered for the 5.56, it was one of the issues troops had with it, the round was considered too light and wouldn't 'stop' an enemy combatant reliably with one round the way the heavier calibre bullet would (which was likely more old troops annoyed with any changes what so ever than a real problem).

None of which has anything to do with the fact that there is absolutely no need for a semi auto gun of any sort for any use in a civilian application, even law enforcement frankly

[btimbit]

All the talk of banning the AR15 is ridiculous. Gun control argument I get. I'm against it, but I understand it. But just banning one gun design because is popular is not a solution

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Small point of order, the M 16 was always chambered for the 5.56, it was one of the issues troops had with it, the round was considered too light and wouldn't 'stop' an enemy combatant reliably with one round the way the heavier calibre bullet would (which was likely more old troops annoyed with any changes what so ever than a real problem).

None of which has anything to do with the fact that there is absolutely no need for a semi auto gun of any sort for any use in a civilian application, even law enforcement frankly

the tumble in the jungle. the 5.56 round tended to be a poor selection because it struggled to penetrate through think foliage

[schteve_d]

I have guns and I hunt, and I have no need or want whatsoever for guns like these. I mean, I've had a chance to shoot similar weapons and they are fun to shoot but that's it; I don't think they're fun enough that they need to be in the hands of people. They serve no real purpose other than having a neighborhood arms race. It's hillbilly and it's stupid.

[Jeff Lebowski]

A Republican state representative in Ohio wrote a lengthy Facebook post in the aftermath of the Dayton, Ohio, mass shooting where she blamed the incident and other shootings on "the breakdown of the traditional American family" through gay marriage, transgender people and "drag queen advocates."
State Rep. Candice Keller, who later deleted the post, also blamed violent video games, "fatherlessness," recreational marijuana use and "open borders."
She did not blame ready access to firearms, something many link to the string of mass shootings in the United States, and instead said people are too quick to blame the Second Amendment.

"Why not place the blame where it belongs," she then wrote. "The breakdown of the traditional American family(thank you, transgender, homosexual marriage, and drag queen advocates); fatherlessness, a subject no one discusses or believes is relevant; the ignoring of violent video games; the relaxing of laws against criminals(open borders); the acceptance of recreational marijuana; failed school policies (hello, parents who defend misbehaving students): disrespect to law enforcement (thank you, Obama), hatred of our veterans (thank you professional athletes who hate our flag and National Anthem); the Dem Congress; many members whom are openly anti-Semitic; the culture, which totally ignores the importance of God and the church (until they elect a president); state officeholders, who have no interest whatsoever in learning about out Constitution and the Second Amendment; and snowflakes, who can't respect a duly-elected President."

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...deo-games-open

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

If people are cringing because those with a real, honest desire to solve the problem of people dying in droves don't know what "minute of pie plate" means, then let me be what I can only hope is not the first to say #### those people.

Again, I'm all for facts and information, provided that those facts and that information are instrumental to finding a better solution to the problem (without allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good). The understanding of the difference between an automatic and a semi automatic rifle seems like important information, as does a good grasp on magazine limits. But there's a bunch of meaningless crap flying around that serves only to effectively try to exclude those people who want a solution from the conversation because they aren't gun nuts... ahem, "firearm enthusiasts". That's, again, idiotic.

To be honest I don't think it matters what limit you put on a magazine if you have to take a second or two to reload then find your next target, its the ability to fire rounds quickly without having to take your eye off the targets at all that is the problem, the reason the military dropped bolt action rifles is because it was ungodly slow to shoot the things on target, evn a well trained rifleman would be lucky to get more than 5 or 6 aimed shots off in 30 seconds

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

I have guns and I hunt, and I have no need or want whatsoever for guns like these. I mean, I've had a chance to shoot similar weapons and they are fun to shoot but that's it; I don't think they're fun enough that they need to be in the hands of people. They serve no real purpose other than having a neighborhood arms race. It's hillbilly and it's stupid.

What about people that like them for collecting and/or the historical significance

[schteve_d]

Originally Posted by btimbit

What about people that like them for collecting and/or the historical significance

It's only my opinion of course, but I don't think that justifies having them out and about in the hands of whoever wants one.

The greater good, I suppose.

[missdpuck]

Originally Posted by btimbit

What about people that like them for collecting and/or the historical significance

The guy who was selling the guns at the yard sale had collected guns for over 60 years. He had over 150 guns for sale that day, including some really gorgeous antique pistols. He said the last time he had actually shot a gun was in 1982. There was a rattlesnake on his porch.

He said that except for a brief period in his 20s he had no desire to shoot. He just liked guns.

But it was kinda scary watching people jam on the
brakes and jump on that yard sale. Oooooh, look, gunnnnsssss.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by btimbit

What about people that like them for collecting and/or the historical significance

I enjoy learning about the historical significance of WWII, but that doesn’t mean I can collect a working tank or a hydrogen bomb.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

To be honest I don't think it matters what limit you put on a magazine if you have to take a second or two to reload then find your next target, its the ability to fire rounds quickly without having to take your eye off the targets at all that is the problem, the reason the military dropped bolt action rifles is because it was ungodly slow to shoot the things on target, evn a well trained rifleman would be lucky to get more than 5 or 6 aimed shots off in 30 seconds

The British Soldiers in the early 1900's had to participate in the mad minute shooting drill. The minimum requirement to pass was 10 aimed round in a minute and that's with a 5 round top loading clip.



The World Record for accurate firing of a bolt action rifle is 36 rounds in a minute using the same Lee Enfield bolt action rifle.


But you're right about a couple of things. With a semi automatic rifle, and an easy to reload magazine feed, you can keep you're eyes downfield and very quickly get back in battery.


I will add, that as much fun as it was to fire a fully automatic SMG in the army or the cranky as hell FN-C2 Squad weapon, Fully Automatic fire tends to be really inefficient as its next to impossible to control the weapon accurately after the first three rounds and you tend to find yourself punching holes in the horizon.


I always preferred a single shot semi automatic because you could conserve ammunition which is important considering that you have to carry ammunition. And after every shot you could adjust down field very quickly.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by btimbit

What about people that like them for collecting and/or the historical significance

For the most part those type of weapons are rarely fired because it degrades the value. Most people that I know that have collectable weapons, usually have the firing mechanisms removed and stored, and they're kept in pristine condition.



Plus you can't just go and buy a German WW2 machine gun and claim it as a collectable unless its fully and completely deactivated.