The 2016 US American Election Thread

[Senator Clay Davis]

Edited the emails tag to reflect the obvious.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Oh and the Trump Foundation has been ordered to stop fundraising immediately by the NY AG. I'm sure the response will be to blame the Clinton Foundation yet again.

And just for the lol's, today....

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Gozer

The FBI had one, narrowly focused investigation that included 5 immunity deals, that determined a Cabinet level official would not be prosecuted during an election (the latter two facts are factors in that decision).

I just read the entire FBI statement and it didn't sound like a narrow investigation nor did they say they wouldn't prosecute in an election year. All they said was that out of the 30,000 emails that were carelessly discarded, 7 email chains involved communications that were classified as secret and shouldn't have been placed anywhere without security.

Their conclusion was that based on passed experience, no prosecutor would expect to bring charges given the lack of intent, but they also said that it was careless and Clinton should have known better.

Why can't that be the end of it?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by photon

Here's Trump's appearance in the porn video, fortunately he keeps his pants on.



"Evangelical Christians endorse actor from porn video for president"

So many sentences that one would never think could have been uttered in this election.

just shows what sheep these people are...Trump is a lot of things, he is certainly not Christian by any of the teachings of the bible

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Gozer

But that doesn't exempt a public official from record keeping, nor does it exonerate her for destroying evidence under supeona.

See this is part of the problem here. Photon did his best to try and explain how incidental compartmentalization happens within an organization because of job responsibility. It was extremely valid but you chose to ignore it. It plays greatly in this investigation, because the FBI were attempting to discover if someone at a high level was aware of, or was responsible for, the destruction of data. The FBI granted immunity because they needed to cooberate what they believed to be true, but could not get anyone to talk because of possible self incrimination. The immunity was granted to go after the bigger fish by discovering who said what and when. Unfortunately the FBI found that the ones responsible for the illegal actions were the ones they granted immunity to.

As to the public official's responsibility to record keeping, this has been explained again and again and again. The assumption was that the record was intact because of the originating source of emails. When the State Department discovered the potential for records not being maintained, they ordered Clinton to sync data from here server to the State Dept servers, which they did. She ordered her people to comply, and believed they did. Evidence supports this took place. She then ordered her people to delete records, long before the subpoena, and believed her people complied. Unfortunately her contractors screwed the pooch and did not comply. When the subpoena came in they had an "oh ####" moment and realized they had not followed through on the deletion request. Rather than fall on their sword for not complying with that request, and risk getting fired, they made a bad decision to delete the records after the fact, and after the record hold was in place by subpoena. The responsible party is the admin of the system, not the person three to five positions removed. That is what the FBI found and why there were not charges in this case.

Bottom line, it's done. It's over and there is nothing left but for a bull#### sub-committee to manufacture outrage and create dirt to throw at a candidate during a presidential campaign.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by New Era

See this is part of the problem here. Photon did his best to try and explain how incidental compartmentalization happens within an organization because of job responsibility. It was extremely valid but you chose to ignore it. It plays greatly in this investigation, because the FBI were attempting to discover if someone at a high level was aware of, or was responsible for, the destruction of data. The FBI granted immunity because they needed to cooberate what they believed to be true, but could not get anyone to talk because of possible self incrimination. The immunity was granted to go after the bigger fish by discovering who said what and when. Unfortunately the FBI found that the ones responsible for the illegal actions were the ones they granted immunity to.

As to the public official's responsibility to record keeping, this has been explained again and again and again. The assumption was that the record was intact because of the originating source of emails. When the State Department discovered the potential for records not being maintained, they ordered Clinton to sync data from here server to the State Dept servers, which they did. She ordered her people to comply, and believed they did. Evidence supports this took place. She then ordered her people to delete records, long before the subpoena, and believed her people complied. Unfortunately her contractors screwed the pooch and did not comply. When the subpoena came in they had an "oh ####" moment and realized they had not followed through on the deletion request. Rather than fall on their sword for not complying with that request, and risk getting fired, they made a bad decision to delete the records after the fact, and after the record hold was in place by subpoena. The responsible party is the admin of the system, not the person three to five positions removed. That is what the FBI found and why there were not charges in this case.

Bottom line, it's done. It's over and there is nothing left but for a bull#### sub-committee to manufacture outrage and create dirt to throw at a candidate during a presidential campaign.

Good summary. I don't know why it is so hard for some people to believe that sometimes the boring and easiest answer is the right one. It just has to be a conspiracy where the FBI is trying to control the election results. We want scandal dammit! If anything, the FBI took measures to try and catch Clinton and it backfired by then having no one to prosecute.

It's amazing that after 2 years of this, this is the best that the Trump side can muster and nothing he does or says sticks.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Good summary. I don't know why it is so hard for some people to believe that sometimes the boring and easiest answer is the right one.

Sometimes? Try "almost always".

... Though it would be reasonable to retort that the "almost" part still makes it worth looking into.

[bob-loblaw]

Hillary Clinton ‏@HillaryClinton 3m3 minutes ago
Trump's campaign is bragging that not paying taxes makes him a "genius."

What kind of genius loses $1 billion in a single year?

Reading all the information about taxes in the US real estate investment sector, a lot of people say they'd be better off making it tax free than the way they treat it now.

Real estate appreciates over time (with the exception of the housing crisis obviously) and so does rent so you'd think he'd have to pay taxes eventually. He would have 18 years to make over $1 billion in order to pay taxes. If he hasn't paid taxes yet, then he is either a really poor business man as his companies haven't overcome that loss, or the taxes in the American real estate sector really have to be changed, or both.

Who really knows what he pays himself I suppose, but look at his ostentatious lifestyle and he lives in the places his corporation owns.

I wonder if Trump knew a 400 pound hacker got his tax returns before the debate?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Boy this week is off the an even worse start than last week for Trump. Today we've already had him suggesting soldiers with PTSD are weak, had the Trump Foundation basically shuttered, and now a new story about him buying steel from China instead of (swing states) Ohio and Pennsylvania. Yeesh.

A Newsweek investigation has found that in at least two of Trump’s last three construction projects, Trump opted to purchase his steel and aluminum from Chinese manufacturers rather than United States corporations based in states like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin.

Of Trump’s last three construction projects, the first to use Chinese steel was Trump International Hotel Las Vegas, which opened in 2008. That the manufacturer is from China is not immediately evident; this fact is hidden within a chain of various corporate entities, including holding companies registered in the British Virgin Islands. That micro-state is a popular site for obscure off-shore entities that exist only on legal documents, limiting the potential liability of real businesses while obscuring their true owners.

According to government documents, the Chinese entity chosen by Trump to provide steel for the Las Vegas property is a holding company called Ossen Innovation Co. Ltd.–formerly known as Ultra Glory International Ltd. That British Virgin Islands entity in turn owns a second holding company called Ossen Innovation Materials Group Ltd., which, through a complex legal arrangement, indirectly owns Ossen Innovation Materials Co. Ltd., and through it, Ossen (Jiujiang) Steel Wire & Cable Co. Ltd., the operating business located in Shanghai. With such layers upon layers of corporate shells and divisions, builders like Trump can purchase their steel from less-expensive Chinese suppliers without the ultimate supplier being readily apparent. That steel was then used in the construction of the Las Vegas property.

When Americans like Trump purchase their steel through Ossen, they are providing financial benefits to an array of Chinese companies and even the government. For example, Ossen corporate records show Chinese banks provide all of its short-term financing in the form of loans that almost all mature after one year, and then are replaced by new loans; most Chinese banks are arms of the state, tightly controlled by the Chinese Communist Party, and provide financing to companies that are competitors to American manufacturers in other industries. (For example, the Chinese companies that manufacture suits and ties for the Donald Trump Signature Collection also obtain loans from mainland banks; Trump has said he has been forced to use the Chinese for his clothing lines because no American company makes those kinds of products anymore. That is not true—for example, all Brooks Brothers ties are made in New York, while about 85% of the company’s suits are made in Massachusetts.)

Another recent Trump building that has used metal from China is Trump International Hotel and Tower in Chicago, which opened in 2009. For that project, Trump obtained loans from Deutsche Bank and three hedge funds that in turn used financing from George Soros, the business magnate who is the subject of many conservative conspiracy theories and is portrayed as a threat to the Republican Party.

The building required tons of aluminum and Trump elected not to purchase the metal from Alcoa or any other similar American producer, but instead turn to a subsidiary of a Chinese aluminum manufacturer. Because American businesses have been turning to cheaper aluminum from overseas, the industry is collapsing. For example, in just the last two years, more than half of the country’s aluminum smelters in states like Ohio, West Virginia and Texas have closed as a result of being undercut on price by competition from overseas.

Trump purchased the aluminum used in the Chicago project for what is called the “curtain wall”—the glass and metal exterior designed to save energy. The wall is made with 11,500 panels of thermal pane glass encased in aluminum. Each of the panels is 6 feet, 3 inches, meaning they used 207,000 feet of aluminum; the precise amount of tonnage could not be determined. However, assuming an admittedly light weight of a pound per foot, American companies lost out on more than $350 million in sales.

For the Chicago project, tracing the metal back to China is once again a difficult process. To construct the exterior panels, Trump hired an entity called Permasteelisa Cladding Technologies Ltd., which is based in Connecticut. That company, in turn, is a division of Permasteelisa North America Corp., which, despite its name, has been identified by the American government as an importer of steel, aluminum and other metals from its affiliated companies, Permasteelisa South China Factory and Permasteelisa Hong Kong Limited.

During the time of the Trump Chicago construction, according to documents filed with the United States Court of International Trade by the Department of Justice and the Department of Commerce, Permasteelisa was dumping aluminum used in curtain walls, meaning it was using predatory pricing to sell the products below the cost of production or the amount charged in China. The beneficiaries of trade dumping are users of the material, like Trump, who save significant sums of money on construction, thus increasing their profits. The losers are the American competitors like aluminum producers who cannot possibly compete with foreign companies that are willing to take losses on the sales of their building materials in hopes of driving companies in the United States out of business.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-donald-t...s-china-505717

[GGG]

I hate the arguememt that trump the businessman should have bought American. He bought from the lowest priced quality source. That's what he should be doing. It's the same as the tax argument. He should be reducing his taxes by any legal means.

These shouldn't be reasons he's not qualified to be president.

[Izzle]

https://twitter.com/politico/status/...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Looks like Hillary is enjoying going after Trump. Way to troll him by name dropping Mark Cuban.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Izzle

https://twitter.com/politico/status/...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Looks like Hillary is enjoying going after Trump. Way to troll him by name dropping Mark Cuban.

My god. Reading through the first 20 comments or so is a glimpse directly into Satan's butthole.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by GGG

I hate the arguememt that trump the businessman should have bought American. He bought from the lowest priced quality source. That's what he should be doing. It's the same as the tax argument. He should be reducing his taxes by any legal means.

These shouldn't be reasons he's not qualified to be president.

Well when half of your stated, uh, "policies" revolve around reviving the American manufacturing sector...

[photon]

Here's the letter from the NY AG ordering the Trump Foundation to stop fund raising in NY, and requiring it to providing the delinquent financial reports within 15 days.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...oundation.html

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by GGG

I hate the arguememt that trump the businessman should have bought American. He bought from the lowest priced quality source. That's what he should be doing. It's the same as the tax argument. He should be reducing his taxes by any legal means.

These shouldn't be reasons he's not qualified to be president.

Normally I'd agree but it's Trump himself that has made this a central issue to his economic platform.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by GGG

I hate the arguememt that trump the businessman should have bought American. He bought from the lowest priced quality source. That's what he should be doing. It's the same as the tax argument. He should be reducing his taxes by any legal means.

These shouldn't be reasons he's not qualified to be president.

It's different when you are campaigning to "Make America Great Again" but your personal and business history shows nothing that indicates you actually want to make america great again. He can choose to support US businesses but thus far it doesn't seem like he does unless it's his own business already. And yes that is a very real choice many businesses make.

The tax thing is more complex as he likely could have used other peoples and bank money to essentially finance his massive take write-off. It may be legal but legal doesn't mean ethical. It's also important because everything I've seen about his tax plan recommendations doesn't actually address these things. edit: what may have been done is Trump personally guaranteed $800+ million of debt and other assets and using provisions only available to real estate developers used that as a personal write-off...something one can do even if not investing a dime of your own money. He'd have to recapture that at some point unless you of course use other loopholes like, maybe, saying your are insolvent and unable to meet that debt. And again this and various other loopholes real estate developers somehow get will not be closed down with his proposals.

Similar to bankruptcy...just because you can legally do it as a company or person doesn't make it the ethical way to do things as a lot of other people end up footing your bill. I'm pretty sure Trump likely doesn't want people digging into whether or not he had other options than bankruptcy to keep things solvent. It was likely the best option for him and him alone. Others be damned.

And that's the problem. A president shouldn't really have a "what's best for me and others be damned" attitude.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Normally I'd agree but it's Trump himself that has made this a central issue to his economic platform.

But the counter which is absolutely true and one he is campaigning on is to end the trade deals that allow him as the business man to not buy American.

He should be attacked on being Anti-Trade not on being a hypocrite. It is not hypocritical for his companies to act in self interest.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GGG

I hate the arguememt that trump the businessman should have bought American. He bought from the lowest priced quality source. That's what he should be doing. It's the same as the tax argument. He should be reducing his taxes by any legal means.

These shouldn't be reasons he's not qualified to be president.

Really? When you run under a hat with "Make America great again" you better be buying American. The fact that he gets his projects financed through foreign banks, because no one domestically will lend him money, then uses materials from the very countries he dumps all over for taking advantage of America, it speaks volumes about his principles. Donald Trump is in it for Donald Trump and doesn't give a rip about America.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by GGG

But the counter which is absolutely true and one he is campaigning on is to end the trade deals that allow him as the business man to not buy American.

He should be attacked on being Anti-Trade not on being a hypocrite. It is not hypocritical for his companies to act in self interest.

But it should be painfully obvious that with him running as the leader of the free trade loving GOP, he'll never change anything. And realistically he's more likely to make more trade deals that benefit his companies at the expense of American workers. That anyone thinks his number one concern as POTUS won't be enriching the Trump Organization is laughable, but his supporters aren't rational people so they eat up all the lies.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by GGG

I hate the arguememt that trump the businessman should have bought American. He bought from the lowest priced quality source. That's what he should be doing. It's the same as the tax argument. He should be reducing his taxes by any legal means.

These shouldn't be reasons he's not qualified to be president.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you.

it does not "disqualify" him, but don't get on the bully pulpit and yell about how much you care and how much your opponent is ruining their industry. If you're not going to support them when you can, your credibility is in question if you promise you'll flip the switch to caring after the election