Have you cold approached a girl?

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

No? My point is that regardless of whether it's 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10 or 1 in 4, reference to statistics does not justify the perpetuation of a negative stereotype about a group of people based on an immutable characteristic they share that has nothing to do with the basis of your concern.

In other words, exactly what I said, rather than the #######ized interpretation of what I said you chose to adopt.


Now take this and apply it to personal experiences relating to some other group of people. I.e., "I've personally experienced an overbearing gay guy coming on to me at a bar and touching me inappropriately, and therefore I have a distrust of gay guys based on my experience that is wholly justified!"

Again, if someone were to apply this to any other group, we would all join in chorus in saying to that person "#### you". I don't know how people can be so tone deaf about this.

I have to say I really don't understand what you are arguing. Nowhere did I state that it's all men, or only men. Woman on woman assault happens, woman on man assault happens. But the majority of assault is perpetrated by men (man on woman and man on man). I was attempting to explain to you why women are apprehensive and defensive in certain situations and around some men. Because of experiences, not statistics or fear-mongering.

The website listed a statistic for male victims too, if you happened to read any of it. 1 in 10 men have experienced sexual abuse as well. I didn't read any statistics on the breakdown of male/female perpetrators.

And I think the context that you are missing is that this is happening to ALL WOMEN. That was the point of the twitter campaign I guess. It's not one woman's personal experience coloring her view of the world and producing gender bias. Like your example of a man in a gay bar.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

It's really the gender attack that is most frustrating. And while we are free to think what we want, I see so much gender hate everywhere and shared and reposted and it breaks my heart. And it's seems like gender hate is okay in western culture. I'm just terrible and putting it to words and I'm far too passionate to post on some subjects. Sometimes I wish I was somewhat analytical, but I'm not. I'm an extrovert artist and I've always been. (I've been reading up on personality differences and I'm trying to grow by understanding the different ways we think and process. TMI, perhaps.)

I have a friend going through hell because his wife had an affair with a very troubled 14yr old boy. This isn't the only incident caused by a woman in Calgary either. In fact most haven't heard about this incident yet because identities are being protected.

These horrible things are done by individuals and the gender fear mongering that comes with it is terrible. I highly doubt there are 1 out of 4 dangerous men sexually abusing women out there. (touching, rape, because that's what people have been taught when the term sexual abuse is used.) I'd like to see the questionnaire that the people were asked to see just what they think is sexual abuse. I'm quite sure that I've been sexually abused by their standards. For example, when I was 12 I caught a 45 year old woman watching me change. And it was f'd up. Staring at me from behind a cracked open door, lights off in the hallway so you can't see out. Gross! I'm not trying to take away from real assaults. We know they happen and there needs to be justice and assistance for those who have suffered.

I'm always flattered when women approach me. Wish they'd do it to us guys more often.

The stat is not 1 out of 4 men are rapists. Definitely not. It is 1 out of 4 women will experience sexual assault. Sexual assault is rape.

The statistics for sexual "abuse" are much higher (please check out the link I posted before) and I'm not clear what the specific definition of sexual abuse is. They may have more details on that website if you are interested.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Again, it wouldn't matter if 1 in 4 people had been the victim of assault at the hands of a black person, it would be equally wrong to take the position that any time you see a black guy walking toward you you need to take a defensive posture.

Whether or not a person makes the choice that they're going to adopt an attitude like this out of necessity (which I think is a very sad way to live one's life) is a different issue. But if you do, don't be self-righteous about it because if it's a necessary evil (which again I dispute) it remains evil. Reading some of the posts on facebook and other social media about this stuff lately has made me sick to my stomach.

I have three friends who have been drugged, both of my sisters and my mother were sexually assaulted, a friend was date-raped (also secretly filmed during the act, and the guy then sent the video to his friends), another friend who was emotionally, sexually, and physically abused by an ex-boyfriend, two aunts who were abused physically and a grandmother who was abused emotionally.

How many friends do you have that were hit on by gay guys to the point of fearing for their safety? How many relatives do you have that were beat up by black guys?

This isn't a made up statistic. Every woman I know either was a victim herself or knows several. Every. Woman. This isn't rare or unusual. This is reality for us.

And yes, maybe we'll give a fake number or avoid your advances. Sorry, your feelings are hurt. We'll worry more about offending your sensibilities when we stop getting killed/raped/assaulted/abused en masse.

Originally Posted by Peanut

So your argument is that 1 in 4 women being sexually assaulted is a twisted statistic made up to persecute men?! Or that the stats are twisted to try and make women more defensive or frightened of men?

Sorry, but women are not defensive because of stats that we read on the internet. We are defensive because we've EXPERIENCED some form of unwanted sexual harassment, touching or assault at some point in our lives. Ass slapped on transit? Or out at a bar? Check. Drugs slipped into your drink? Check. Inappropriate touching by a teacher, coach or someone in a position of authority? Check. Men in the workplace making lewd, inappropriate or derogatory comments? Check.

Seriously. If a woman manages to avoid date rape, partner abuse or familial abuse, that's pretty fortunate. The more minor stuff like I described above happens to basically everyone. That's how we learn to be defensive.

This is the thing--we are not all hating men. I don't hate men in general, I hate the patriarchal crap that causes everyday problems for every woman I know. I hate that currently more people in the US are upset because THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR GUNS than the fact that the extreme misogynist views of a psycho killed six innocent people.

But I date. I like to flirt. I enjoy being around men. But that doesn't mean that I don't have to take precautions everytime I date someone, that doesn't mean that every woman doesn't have to take precautions everytime she dates someone. I had a date over on Thursday evening, and as a precaution, I texted the girl who lives across the hall to keep an ear out, just in case things went bad. Went to dinner with a different guy last month, and had several friends waiting to hear from me afterward to make sure I was safe. This is reality for women. Until you can grasp that it's not hatred of men, it's fearing for our own safety, you will not understand that it isn't about your hurt feelings, it's about our survival.

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

I'm always flattered when women approach me. Wish they'd do it to us guys more often.

How many men do you know who have been physically or sexually assaulted by women? How many men do you know who have been felt up on a train by a freaky woman? How many men do you know who have been called derogatory names because he didn't respond properly to a woman's advances?

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Now take this and apply it to personal experiences relating to some other group of people. I.e., "I've personally experienced an overbearing gay guy coming on to me at a bar and touching me inappropriately, and therefore I have a distrust of gay guys based on my experience that is wholly justified!"

Again, if someone were to apply this to any other group, we would all join in chorus in saying to that person "#### you". I don't know how people can be so tone deaf about this.

Again: How many friends do you have who have repeatedly experienced being come onto by an overbearing gay man who touched them inappropriately?

Tell men to stop feeling entitled to women's bodies, teach men that date rape is still rape. Teach men that cat-calling is offensive. Teach men that it's not okay to feel a girl up on a train. Obviously there are enough men doing it that it's a problem.

Stop blaming the victims for being afraid. Blame the men who are perpetuating that fear.

[indes]

Jeez.

Every woman you know is constantly harassed by men every day? This thread is getting out of hand.

[SHOGUN]

Originally Posted by indes

Jeez.

Every woman you know is constantly harassed by men every day? This thread is getting out of hand.

Cold approaching thread turns to a rape thread... I'm so surprised.

[taco.vidal]

Not sure anyone can refute your cold hard facts. Case closed.

Originally Posted by wittynickname

I have three friends who have been drugged, both of my sisters and my mother were sexually assaulted, a friend was date-raped (also secretly filmed during the act, and the guy then sent the video to his friends), another friend who was emotionally, sexually, and physically abused by an ex-boyfriend, two aunts who were abused physically and a grandmother who was abused emotionally.

How many friends do you have that were hit on by gay guys to the point of fearing for their safety? How many relatives do you have that were beat up by black guys?

This isn't a made up statistic. Every woman I know either was a victim herself or knows several. Every. Woman. This isn't rare or unusual. This is reality for us.

And yes, maybe we'll give a fake number or avoid your advances. Sorry, your feelings are hurt. We'll worry more about offending your sensibilities when we stop getting killed/raped/assaulted/abused en masse.




This is the thing--we are not all hating men. I don't hate men in general, I hate the patriarchal crap that causes everyday problems for every woman I know. I hate that currently more people in the US are upset because THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR GUNS than the fact that the extreme misogynist views of a psycho killed six innocent people.

But I date. I like to flirt. I enjoy being around men. But that doesn't mean that I don't have to take precautions everytime I date someone, that doesn't mean that every woman doesn't have to take precautions everytime she dates someone. I had a date over on Thursday evening, and as a precaution, I texted the girl who lives across the hall to keep an ear out, just in case things went bad. Went to dinner with a different guy last month, and had several friends waiting to hear from me afterward to make sure I was safe. This is reality for women. Until you can grasp that it's not hatred of men, it's fearing for our own safety, you will not understand that it isn't about your hurt feelings, it's about our survival.




How many men do you know who have been physically or sexually assaulted by women? How many men do you know who have been felt up on a train by a freaky woman? How many men do you know who have been called derogatory names because he didn't respond properly to a woman's advances?




Again: How many friends do you have who have repeatedly experienced being come onto by an overbearing gay man who touched them inappropriately?

Tell men to stop feeling entitled to women's bodies, teach men that date rape is still rape. Teach men that cat-calling is offensive. Teach men that it's not okay to feel a girl up on a train. Obviously there are enough men doing it that it's a problem.

Stop blaming the victims for being afraid. Blame the men who are perpetuating that fear.

[chummer]

The real crime is the crap that wittynickname spews on here and gets away with it.

[V]

How is it crap? It aligns fairly well with the statistics. Where is the disconnect?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by chummer

The real crime is the crap that wittynickname spews on here and gets away with it.

[chummer]

Originally Posted by V

How is it crap? It aligns fairly well with the statistics. Where is the disconnect?

Saying that every woman she knows has been sexually assaulted does nothing for the ones that actually have.

[4X4]

What a waste of a thread with potential. We need a super mega misogynist thread.

[sa226]

I think fotze is the moderator that we deserve, but not the one that we need right now.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I was the worst at approaching girls when I was younger. Most of the time I would get upset at the fact that the arrogant/a-hole guys would get lots of attention from girls and I was a nice guy that would remain alone most of my young life. Then it occurred to me, after watching many encounters my friends had with these girls, that most of the young early 20's girls that are out at bars are kind of stupid and immature and I wouldn't want them for anything other than sex anyways. Since I don't care for sex without love (or intimacy, whatever word you fancy) I never did any of those obvious tricks to get a girl to come home with me, but I clearly understood that being an arrogant d-bag worked a lot of the time.

The one time that I had girls flocking over me was after a round of public karaoke. I have a decent singing voice and someone dared me to sing "Just a Gigolo" by David Lee Roth. Apparently that song is like spanish fly to the ladies in this bar and several very good looking girls became instantly attracted to me and wanted to take me home. Never happened again of course.

I'm awful at asking girls out and usually they have to make it painfully obvious that they are interested in me before I get the courage to ask them. I almost have to be sure it won't be a "no" before I do it. Constantly being rejected in junior high and high school really did a number on me.

I've also never had a problem just having a conversation with a random woman, and several ladies ended up being friends of mine because of that trait. But then I got the label of being "gay" from a lot of guys because I'm not an alpha that likes to take women home purely for sex and actually treated them like real people that I could actually be friends with. Sufficed to say I hated my 20's when it came to relationships.

I met my beautiful wife online about 5 years ago and have been blissfully happy ever since (she's literally out of my league). I despised the world of face-to-face romantic interaction with women as it only ever brought me grief.

Good on all those guys who treat it like no big deal. I never managed to successfully approach a girl if my intention was to pick her up. Thank god for the internet.

Thanks for posting, aside from the marriage thing, this is my stance as well. Can't do the online dating thing either though.
Saves me from making a huge essay like post on the subject when you put it all in a nutshell. cheers.

[MrMastodonFarm]

I liked Cali Flames Fans post because I'm glad I'm not the only one that used Just a Gigalo as his go to karaoke song.

[V]

Originally Posted by chummer

Saying that every woman she knows has been sexually assaulted does nothing for the ones that actually have.

Maybe you should re-read that then.

[photon]

Originally Posted by indes

Every woman you know is constantly harassed by men every day? This thread is getting out of hand.

No one said that, misrepresenting what someone says in a thread about actual harm to people is really not the way to participate, to say the least.

Originally Posted by chummer

Saying that every woman she knows has been sexually assaulted does nothing for the ones that actually have.

Your actual point in posting this isn't making it through. Are you saying that she shouldn't be talking about it and should be, what, working at a women's shelter to the exclusion of being able to post on a forum? If not, then what is your point?

And I think it does (EDIT: does do something I mean), speaking out itself takes courage. Almost every post I've read by women talking about how they have to live their lives that has a discussion attached to it invariably includes people trying to shame the women for speaking up or demean what they are saying. The more that women speak out, the more public it becomes, the better. The more they speak out, the faster our society's attitudes can change.

[photon]

I think I'd like to respond to these ideas, I don't want to try to continue a conversation that can't be responded to, so I'm trying to reply in general. If I fail I apologize.

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Right, because statistics and data have never been used to justify the perpetuation of negative attitudes about a group of people based on a shared immutable characteristic. That would never happen!

I think this misses the point entirely. The negative attitudes aren't against a group of people. Nor are they presuming the entire group of people have this property as an inherent thing. That's what makes it different than bigotry.

As far as I know all the women posting in this thread are either married or have otherwise outright said they date, etc. So that demonstrates that it's not a negative attitude towards a group of people.

What it is is taking the necessary precautions to improve chances of avoiding harm, and the negative response at that being necessary for half the population.

Not to mention it being backwards. Rather than teaching people not to be raped, we should be teaching people not to rape. (Or assault, or demean, or marginalize).

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Again, it wouldn't matter if 1 in 4 people had been the victim of assault at the hands of a black person, it would be equally wrong to take the position that any time you see a black guy walking toward you you need to take a defensive posture.

I disagree. What would be wrong is to take the position that it's an inherent property of black people to assault people.

Otherwise not taking precautions when the risk is so incredibly high is foolishness. No one would swim at the beach that has a 25% chance of getting eaten by sharks.

And I think sharks is maybe a better comparison than one might first think. No one hates sharks for growing up a shark. No one blames sharks as a group for doing shark things.

If one reads what's been written, it's not blaming all men for being inherently bad (again I'm sure there's some of that somewhere, but we can all agree that it isn't valid). The posts talk more about society and societal attitudes and how some people as a result. I don't blame someone raised 150 years ago for being racist; it'd be shocking if they weren't. I don't blame someone that has bad attitudes towards women if that's the ocean they swam in since they were born.

That's why speaking out is important. Education. Media.

Eventually someone is responsible if they don't change their attitudes, but change takes time.

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Whether or not a person makes the choice that they're going to adopt an attitude like this out of necessity (which I think is a very sad way to live one's life) is a different issue.

Personally I'm very careful about making such a judgement if one I'm not in the other person's shoes. I agree that having to take measures to protect one's self against a source of harm that's pervasive and even fostered by a significant part of society IS a sad way to live, but I blame the source of harm (which as I said is not the male gender itself), not the victims of that harm for protecting themselves.

[indes]

Originally Posted by Peanut

I have to say I really don't understand what you are arguing. Nowhere did I state that it's all men, or only men. Woman on woman assault happens, woman on man assault happens. But the majority of assault is perpetrated by men (man on woman and man on man). I was attempting to explain to you why women are apprehensive and defensive in certain situations and around some men. Because of experiences, not statistics or fear-mongering.

The website listed a statistic for male victims too, if you happened to read any of it. 1 in 10 men have experienced sexual abuse as well. I didn't read any statistics on the breakdown of male/female perpetrators.

And I think the context that you are missing is that this is happening to ALL WOMEN. That was the point of the twitter campaign I guess. It's not one woman's personal experience coloring her view of the world and producing gender bias. Like your example of a man in a gay bar.

Originally Posted by wittynickname

I have three friends who have been drugged, both of my sisters and my mother were sexually assaulted, a friend was date-raped (also secretly filmed during the act, and the guy then sent the video to his friends), another friend who was emotionally, sexually, and physically abused by an ex-boyfriend, two aunts who were abused physically and a grandmother who was abused emotionally.

How many friends do you have that were hit on by gay guys to the point of fearing for their safety? How many relatives do you have that were beat up by black guys?

This isn't a made up statistic. Every woman I know either was a victim herself or knows several. Every. Woman. This isn't rare or unusual. This is reality for us.

And yes, maybe we'll give a fake number or avoid your advances. Sorry, your feelings are hurt. We'll worry more about offending your sensibilities when we stop getting killed/raped/assaulted/abused en masse.




This is the thing--we are not all hating men. I don't hate men in general, I hate the patriarchal crap that causes everyday problems for every woman I know. I hate that currently more people in the US are upset because THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR GUNS than the fact that the extreme misogynist views of a psycho killed six innocent people.

But I date. I like to flirt. I enjoy being around men. But that doesn't mean that I don't have to take precautions everytime I date someone, that doesn't mean that every woman doesn't have to take precautions everytime she dates someone. I had a date over on Thursday evening, and as a precaution, I texted the girl who lives across the hall to keep an ear out, just in case things went bad. Went to dinner with a different guy last month, and had several friends waiting to hear from me afterward to make sure I was safe. This is reality for women. Until you can grasp that it's not hatred of men, it's fearing for our own safety, you will not understand that it isn't about your hurt feelings, it's about our survival.




How many men do you know who have been physically or sexually assaulted by women? How many men do you know who have been felt up on a train by a freaky woman? How many men do you know who have been called derogatory names because he didn't respond properly to a woman's advances?




Again: How many friends do you have who have repeatedly experienced being come onto by an overbearing gay man who touched them inappropriately?

Tell men to stop feeling entitled to women's bodies, teach men that date rape is still rape. Teach men that cat-calling is offensive. Teach men that it's not okay to feel a girl up on a train. Obviously there are enough men doing it that it's a problem.

Stop blaming the victims for being afraid. Blame the men who are perpetuating that fear.

I'm not the one contributing to the thread?? A few pages back a poster got jumped on for saying women enjoy talking about themselves. I see it's entirely appropriate to paint all men with the same brush, not to mention one with a much darker color. There's quite the misandrist tone to these posts but it's unfair to disagree because they're women. I think the fact that they look at all men as potential attackers says a lot more about them than it does about the men they see.

[photon]

Originally Posted by indes

I see it's entirely appropriate to paint all men with the same brush, not to mention one with a much darker color.

But they aren't, it's clear to me. They explicitly say so. "Nowhere did I state that it's all men, or only men." "Blame the men who are perpetuating that fear."

Originally Posted by indes

I think the fact that they look at all men as potential attackers says a lot more about them than it does about the men they see.

I think that that's an easy view because it absolves one of any responsibility. The more challenging one is to first empathize with someone who has been harmed rather than blame them for their response to being harmed.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by indes

I'm not the one contributing to the thread?? A few pages back a poster got jumped on for saying women enjoy talking about themselves. I see it's entirely appropriate to paint all men with the same brush, not to mention one with a much darker color. There's quite the misandrist tone to these posts but it's unfair to disagree because they're women. I think the fact that they look at all men as potential attackers says a lot more about them than it does about the men they see.

Honestly, the offence you seem to be taking from this thread can be born only out of ignorance or guilt. Regardless, it's probably best you chilled out on the subject, as you've only been able to grossly misrepresent the conversation being had and the points being made.

Misandry isn't a real thing. If you think it's a real thing, you're probably a misogynist.