[News] Flames scratch Sven...again

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

As much flack as Yakupov is getting, Eakins is making himself look like the bigger idiot of the two.

Also, Sven hasn't come out to say "I don't play defence. It's not my game" like Yakupov has. We've seen Baertschi steadily improve his defence each game.

I'd say the major problem is that the coach is not communicating well with the player. That is literally the coaches job. If he can't do that, then he's not doing his job well.

What evidence is there of this? Show me anything that says Hartley isn't communicating well with Sven.


Sven just hasn't been good enough and the coaching staff is doing what they think is best to make him a better player.

He was poor in prospect camp, poor in rookie camp, and had a weak enough training camp that it was questioned if he would even make the team.

He stepped up his game a bit to start the season but even then has been average at best and very inconsistent.

There is no conspiracy against Sven, they aren't trying to ruin him, they are doing what they think is right for the player and they are closer to it then all of us.

I honestly hope that Sven doesn't react to his benchings by making the same excuses as you do for him.

Cant possibly be Svens fault for his benching, cant be that he just isn't playing well or doing what the coaches ask of him. Has to be that Hartley is out to get him and isn't communicating properly with Sven.

There are two sides to this and Sven needs to shoulder just as much blame for his treatment as the coaching staff.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think it is fair to conclude that the coaches do believe that Baertschi can play in the NHL, which is why they are not punching his ticket to Abbotsford. This is more a case of him not performing up to expectations that they are confident he can meet, now. Send players to play in the AHL if they are clearly overwhelmed and showing signs that they are not ready. Baertschi doesn't really fall into that group.

Maybe, but I'm not sure I fully understand where Hartley stands on all of this. The "Branch Savardian" side of me see's this:

Sven - went from a enthusiastic, worked hard at both ends of the ice (in junior), craving to learn player to suddenly a pouter and 1 way player?

Backlund - no progress, now at the prime of his career age-wise

Horak - went from NHLer (ok at least the first half of his 61-game stint) to 2 years in the AHL

At least Monahan is playing well though.

Maybe Hartley, et al are the experts and I'm just a armchair fan without years of experience in the Swiss league. But to me, when I see this and Sven not playing.... well I guess I don't think its unreasonable to think there is something not right here.

[Southside]

Do not like this decision. Do not agree with this decision. As many have already said Sven has been far from our worst player on any given night. The Burke comments have me wondering if this is all Hartley. Jackman has been a total liability this season, when be has played he has taken stupid penalties.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Hartley may be making a mistake, but I honestly couldn't know one way or the other based on the information at hand. This is sort of my point: it is foolish and shortsighted to conclude that this is an idiotic roster decision because it is not the same decision I would make. By the same token, while I don't understand what is going on, and I am concerned that the coaching staff makes the right decisions, I can't pretend to know more than they do bout what those decisions are.

Surely you have enough information to hold an opinion. Most observers can agree that Baertschi brings more the lineup than Jackman and many others. Hartley says the motivation for sitting him is that the coaching staff's number one priority is to win games. Sure you can speculate on possible justifictions but it doesn't sit right with most fans or neutral observers because on the face of it, it's a bad hockey decision.

Not sure why you take a deferential approach to coaches when it comes to personnel assessments when you do not take the same approach to their attitudes on fighting.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by highlifeman

the minimum standard that management gave hartely in order for monahan to remain on the team was for him to play 15 minutes a night in all situations. What i ask is why the hell isn't that the standard for baertschi as well? Either he is good enough to play in those key situations that will fuel his development or he isn't.

In the games that sven baertschi has received more than 14 minutes of icetime he has recorded 4 points in 6 games.
In the games that sven baertschi has recieved less than 14 minutes of icetime he has recorded 1 point in 7 games.

Either play him in situations that will promote growth in his game, or send him down to the ahl. That is all i ask.

You don't learn how to become a complete player by sitting in the pressbox and watching your team get #### on when you are out of the lineup. He needs to play in key situations in order to develop. Whether that is in the nhl or ahl doesn't matter at this point. I don't want this kid to fail.

tfpu

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

How can you in any way compare the current situation to what happened between Gilbert and Savard? No, the current fan and media frustration and concern does not have to be a distraction. More than likely, no one on the team has really noticed, or cares.

To say no one on the team really notices assumes they don't read the print media or follow tweets. There's the potential for it to develop into a similar situation and that's my concern.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Dion

Greg Gilbert didn't seem to care either and look what happened with that situation. It may happen and then again it may not, still I would think that Flames brass would want to kill it.

If Flames management doesn't seem too concerned about it, then doesn't that also suggest that the media and fans are over-reacting? In the Gilbert situation, the biggest problem was that the media was right about how poorly the coach handled it. Hartley is a Cup winning, seasoned NHL coach, and it is probably a good bet that he has a better handle on things than rookie Greg Gilbert did.

[Righteous1]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Surely you have higher desires for what Baertschi can be.

Jackmans and McGrattans can be found on waivers 7 days a week. They can be found in the minors whenever you want.

It's true

[1stLand]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Maybe, but I'm not sure I fully understand where Hartley stands on all of this. The "Branch Savardian" side of me see's this:

Sven - went from a enthusiastic, worked hard at both ends of the ice (in junior), craving to learn player to suddenly a pouter and 1 way player?

Backlund - no progress, now at the prime of his career age-wise

Horak - went from NHLer (ok at least the first half of his 61-game stint) to 2 years in the AHL

At least Monahan is playing well though.

Maybe Hartley, et al are the experts and I'm just a armchair fan without years of experience in the Swiss league. But to me, when I see this and Sven not playing.... well I guess I don't think its unreasonable to think there is something not right here.

It's not just Hartley. No Flames coach has gotten anything out of a prospect. This organization ruins players before they get a chance.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Surely you have enough information to hold an opinion. Most observers can agree that Baertschi brings more the lineup than Jackman and many others. Hartley says the motivation for sitting him is that the coaching staff's number one priority is to win games. Sure you can speculate on possible justifictions but it doesn't sit right with most fans or neutral observers because on the face of it, it's a bad hockey decision.

That's just it, though. I do have an opinion, and my opinion is that I would rather see Baertschi play in tonight's game. However, neither I, nor anyone else not directly connected to the team has enough information to be sure that this is a good or a bad decision. It's fine if you don't like it, but it is quite another thing to suggest that this proves the coaching staff to be incompetent.

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Not sure why you take a deferential approach to coaches when it comes to personnel assessments when you do not take the same approach to their attitudes on fighting.

Because one issue has virtually nothing to do with the other.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

If Flames management doesn't seem too concerned about it, then doesn't that also suggest that the media and fans are over-reacting? In the Gilbert situation, the biggest problem was that the media was right about how poorly the coach handled it. Hartley is a Cup winning, seasoned NHL coach, and it is probably a good bet that he has a better handle on things than rookie Greg Gilbert did.

For sure the fans and media maybe over reacting, it's the lack of info that causes this type of thing. He could be more clearer than just saying Jackman brings it every night.

Flames mngt didn't handle the Savard/Gilbert feud well. First they got rid of Savard and then Gilbert. Fire Gilbert first and see how Savard does under a new coach.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by 1stLand

It's not just Hartley. No Flames coach has gotten anything out of a prospect. This organization ruins players before they get a chance.

They ruined Brodie?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Dion

For sure the fans and media maybe over reacting, it's the lack of info that causes this type of thing. He could be more clearer than just saying Jackman brings it every night.

To be clear: Savard's trade and Gilbert's firing had nothing to do with the climate in the media. They had everything to do with a rookie GM's inability to accurately gauge a bad situation, and a rookie coach's inability to fix a bad situation. If there is a problem here, it is not the result of the public not having enough information.

[Sheva #7]

So when are we trading Baertschi for Ruslan Zainulin?

[The Ditch]

The coaches are with him everyday, the gm and president are familiar with him as well. So I guess the question is, do you trust the coaches judgement or not.

Speculation and rumour it seems like he currently has an attitude problem, I'll side with the coaches for now.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Surely you have higher desires for what Baertschi can be.

How a propos!

Probably the exact reason that Sven is sitting.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Shouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt? It seems like the reasonable thing to do in any situation, when observing from outside to give the participants the benefit of the doubt until it becomes clear otherwise. So far as I can tell, Hartley hasn't made any critical errors here, and there is no reason to expect that he is or ought to be making drastic changes, or filing detailed reports to the media.

Critical errors? No. No coach was going to make an error that could be deemed 'critical' last season.

Hartley has made mistakes as coach. He was a somewhat questionable hire to begin with. I think both of those are grounds to at least question some of his methods.

I'm sure Sven did something to earn a ride on the pine, but, my problem with him sitting in the press-box is that I don't think he's getting a fair shake for ice time and situations when he's dressed. Maybe they are justified in having him sit for a consecutive game, but, after an injury in the top 6 LW, I would think now would be an opportunity to see what he's learned.

Maybe he's just a ####head, i don't know, but I don't see him getting the same slack in ice time other players are getting. Maybe to his benefit, but it's at least arguable it's to his detriment.

I don't think it's 'critical', but, he needs to see ice time that will put him in a position to succeed as well as mature as a player. Not one or the other. The nights he's going you play the hell out of him, the nights he isn't you don't. So far, the night's he's going he still doesn't seem to get ice. Just a cursory look at Galiardi, Stajan, Monahan, Stempniak and Baertschi, and everyone but Baertschi seems to see fluctuating ice time, presumably based on whether they are 'going' or not. Baertschi's ice time remains mostly flat, however. More than 12, less than 14, occasionally 15.

That's the part I don't like. The benching is whatever, it's that he doesn't seem to get minutes even when he's dressed. Hopefully that changes after a couple of trades, but as we're seeing right now with holes in the top 6, he still can't seem to get back into the lineup.

[Miniac]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

The coaches are with him everyday, the gm and president are familiar with him as well. So I guess the question is, do you trust the coaches judgement or not.

Speculation and rumour it seems like he currently has an attitude problem, I'll side with the coaches for now.

I find that very hard to believe.

[Corral]

Somewhere in this thread i'm sure this has already been noted, but anyway my view is that Sven has done something offend the rules of the 'NHL Club' that ultimately governs who gets head coaching positions, GM spots, quality ice time, and the best interviews. I'm certain that Brian Burke is highly positioned in this club, and Sven has thus attracted his wrath.

There are plenty of other examples to demonstrate that someone with exceptional skill at coaching, managing, or playing just never gets a chance in the NHL - it goes unspoken, but it is because they have been expelled from the 'club'. Those who play within the rules, get the best opportunities ...

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Corral

Somewhere in this thread i'm sure this has already been noted, but anyway my view is that Sven has done something offend the rules of the 'NHL Club' that ultimately governs who gets head coaching positions, GM spots, quality ice time, and the best interviews. I'm certain that Brian Burke is highly positioned in this club, and Sven has thus attracted his wrath.

There are plenty of other examples to demonstrate that someone with exceptional skill at coaching, managing, or playing just never gets a chance in the NHL - it goes unspoken, but it is because they have been expelled from the 'club'. Those who play within the rules, get the best opportunities ...

I did a google search for a ####oo bird with a tinfoil hat. Nothing.

Please use you vivid imagination to see one here.