The Drive for 30th

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

Looking at the numbers (which is all I have as I don't watch jr hockey) I'm puzzled as to why Mackinnon is ranked so high... He's on a stacked team and 30 points less than Drouin... I just assumed he was producing at a clip more on par with Crosby, Stamkos or the like ... I didn't expect he SAME production but within spitting distance, so to speak.

I'd love for people to speak of other elements of his game that him rated so highly.

You got me, when you play on a team that averages 5 goals a game you would think that some real sick numbers (like Druoin or better) would be put up.

I am worried that MacKinnon is like Taylor Hall in the sense that he was suppose to be the best player for so long that he must still be the best player. I would rather have Barkov myself, but that is based on nothing other than numbers, size and quality of competition that Barkov has faced. I am sure MacKinnon will be a solid NHL player, but comparisons to Crosby seem silly, it is almost like he is compared to Crosby because they come from the same hometown and went to the same hockey academy in Minnesota.

[playmaker]

One thing that we desperately need for the future in the leadership and realistically, we're not going to get it from our top prospects (Baertschi, Gaudreau, Brodie, Backlund, etc.)
Therefore the natural choice should be IMHO Sean Monahan, the captain of Ottawa 67's. Big 6'2 centre, canadian, physical presence & good skater with excellent wrist shot. From what I've seen his playing style is quite different to Jankowski's who is rather a playmaking centre, so we'll possibly have a highly skilled playmaker - shooter combo for the centre position in our top 6 which would be fantastic.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by nik-

I know he is of Russian descent, but he really does look Russian, physically.

He's not "of russian descent", he's 100% russian ethnically, both of his parents are russians, and he has russian citizenship as well, as finnish. His father was playing in Finland, brought his wife with him and Barkov was born there. Then Barkov jr ended up staying in Finland for good, got Finland citizenship and played for finnish national teams.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

1998 with the Sedins and then Atlanta and Stefan? I forget how that all shook out. Tampa had first overall and ended up trading out of the first entirely.

It was 1999 and this is how it went down:

Vancouver starts out with pick #3.

1. Vancouver sends Bryan McCabe and their 2000 1st Rounder to Chicago for pick #4

2. Vancouver trades pick #4 and two 1999 third-round picks to Tampa Bay for pick #1.

3. Vancouver trades pick #1 to Atlanta for pick #2 and a conditional 2000 third-rounder, the condition being Atlanta take Stefan 1st overall.

At the time (according to Wikipedia) the 1999 draft was considered extremely deep in talent. So if moving down from #1 was worth the #4 and two third-rounders it seems reasonable that - if the Flames were so inclined - they would be able to ask for a similar return. Should the situation end up such that they have a top-pick.

Currently we have no second-round pick (Part of the Bourque-Cammalleri deal), Winnipeg, Montreal, Dallas, the Rangers, and Minnesota all have two 3rd-rounders. None of those teams would pick top-five, perhaps a deal to trade down two spots and add a second rounder?

[driveway]

Originally Posted by playmaker

One thing that we desperately need for the future in the leadership and realistically, we're not going to get it from our top prospects (Baertschi, Gaudreau, Brodie, Backlund, etc.)

What on earth qualifies you to judge the leadership qualities of any of these men?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

But that was still a bad pick. If you have good intel that Morris won't go until the second round or at least the end of the first you trade down. There is no point in going way off board. You are just wasting assets.

ROFL. A bad pick? He's arguably one of the top few players out of that draft class. Obviously they didn't feel he'd be there later. No idea how you can call it a bad pick. It was a horrible draft year and the Flames ended up with two of the top 3-5 players in Morris (round 1) and Lydman (round 4).

Originally Posted by GGG

Using a first on Morris despite him being a good first round pick in that draft was not maximizing assets when we could have had him with a late first or second round pick.

And yet regardless of that we had a very successful draft in getting two of the best players in a horrible year. Not sure your criticism there is really warranted. Grabbing another pick likely would've resulted in merely picking another bust. '96 was that bad. Go look at it again if you don't believe me. The Flames had an amazing draft getting Morris and Lydman amongst all that chud.

[djsFlames]

Maybe we could just pull off a move sending next years' 1st and a desired roster player + to a surrounding team to get us two picks in the top 5 as someone had mentioned before.

Picking both of the Canadian boys would be just unreal. Or you take one top euro (Barkov) and the speedy winger in Drouin to get some contrast, since it is definitely hard to pin point now who's skills are going to translate and who's aren't (as effectively) even though I think they're all top notch and capable NHLers regardless of their playing style. Anyways one can dream..

I believe any one of them will become a solid piece for the future of the team.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Maybe we could just pull off a move sending next years' 1st and a desired roster player + to a surrounding team to get us two picks in the top 5 as someone had mentioned before.

Picking both of the Canadian boys would be just unreal. Or you take one top euro (Barkov) and the speedy winger in Drouin to get some contrast, since it is definitely hard to pin point now who's skills are going to translate and who's aren't (as effectively) even though I think they're all top notch and capable NHLers regardless of their playing style. Anyways one can dream..

I believe any one of them will become a solid piece for the future of the team.

Given how poor the Flames will be next year, I would rather keep the pick and give the Flames a chance at Reinhart or Ekblad.

[dammage79]

Was McKinnon not injured for a good chunk of the season? Hence why his points totals are lower than Drouins?

[$ven27]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Was McKinnon not injured for a good chunk of the season? Hence why his points totals are lower than Drouins?

He missed 5 less games then Drouin, 49 games to 44.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

That's a great point, and one that shouldn't be overlooked. It's nice when players can pull of dangles like that when they are superiour to their opposition. But that just doesn't happen that often on NHL caliber defenders. In fact, how often during NHL games do you see players skate coast to coast like that and score? Yes their are players who translate that talent over to the NHL, but I think Drouin is going to have to modify his game when he hits the NHL as moves like that won't be able to be pulled off that often. In fact in that best of Drouin video, those defenders are flopping all over the ice and Drouin looks like he's jumping around pylons. That's just not going to happen that often in the NHL.

Well then someone should post videos of his stickhandling in the WJC's. Against the best players aged 1-2 years older than him Drouin was very impressive. So impressive that he worked his way onto the top line as a 17 year old.

Like I said one of the best puckhandlers at his age that I've ever seen. I don't think you'll have to worry at all about him not being able to pull some moves at the NHL level. He's a really smart player. He's going to make some NHL defenders look silly as well.

[Rerun]

Not sure if this has been posted yet in this thread (probably has but I'll repost it anyways), finishing 30th this year isn't all that its cracked up to be... or at least it isn't like it was in previous years.

Odds in picking first in the 2012 draft :

Teams could only move up 4 slots maximum (ie. only the bottom 5 teams had a shot at winning the lottery) and drop no more than 1 spot in the order. So whoever finished last overall in the regular season standings had a 48.2% off winning the draft lottery.

30th place = 48.2%
29th place = 18.8%
28th place = 14.2%
27th place = 10.7%
26th place = 8.1%

2013 NHL Draft Lottery :

For this year's NHL draft, the NHL made a change to the process. Now, all non-playoff teams are eligible to win the draft lottery and select first overall.

In the past, if a team won the lottery, they were only eligible to move up four slots.

30th place - 25.0%
29th place - 18.8%
28th place - 14.2%
27th place - 10.7%
26th place - 8.1%
25th place - 6.2%
24th place - 4.7%
23rd place - 3.6%
22nd place - 2.7%
21st place - 2.1%
20th place - 1.5%
19th place - 1.1%
18th place - 0.8%
17th place - 0.5%

So, for this year, finishing dead last in the league isn't the advantage that it used to be when it comes to picking first in the lottery.

[djsFlames]

Yeah I'd like to know exactly what has happened with MacKinnon since the WJCs. Going in, Nate had a step up I believe stats-wise, or they were pretty close to on par with each other. Obviously Drouin has pulled away. Perhaps MacKinnon's doing some really good things still, hard to say unless someone who's watched them both over that time can chime in and give some observations. I've noticed that Nate has really padded his +/- in the past while though, even though the points aren't coming in as fast.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

Looking at the numbers (which is all I have as I don't watch jr hockey) I'm puzzled as to why Mackinnon is ranked so high... He's on a stacked team and 30 points less than Drouin... I just assumed he was producing at a clip more on par with Crosby, Stamkos or the like ... I didn't expect he SAME production but within spitting distance, so to speak.

I'd love for people to speak of other elements of his game that him rated so highly.

MacKinnon has elite skating. Like as good as anyone at that age pretty much. He's also very competitive and tenacious in puck pursuit. Very good wrist shot it looks like.

Let's face it he's not the elite offensive talent that Crosby or Stamkos is, those are two generational players. So we shouldn't expect he'll be a league leader in goals or points, that would be an unrealistic expectation.

What you can probably expect is that MacKinnon will be an elite two-way centre with explosive, breakaway type speed. Good offensive skills and great competitiveness. That is still a very attractive package and I'm struggling to come up with a good comparable in the NHL in style.

Drouin has higher offensive skills IMO.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Yeah I'd like to know exactly what has happened with MacKinnon since the WJCs. Going in, Nate had a step up I believe stats-wise, or they were pretty close to on par with each other. Obviously Drouin has pulled away. Perhaps MacKinnon's doing some really good things still, hard to say unless someone who's watched them both over that time can chime in and give some observations. I've noticed that Nate has really padded his +/- in the past while though, even though the points aren't coming in as fast.

Or it could be that the WJC's helped Drouin's confidence as he realized he could compete with the best in the world that are 1-2 years older than him.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

MacKinnon has elite skating. Like as good as anyone at that age pretty much. He's also very competitive and tenacious in puck pursuit. Very good wrist shot it looks like.

Let's face it he's not the elite offensive talent that Crosby or Stamkos is, those are two generational players. So we shouldn't expect he'll be a league leader in goals or points, that would be an unrealistic expectation.

What you can probably expect is that MacKinnon will be an elite two-way centre with explosive, breakaway type speed. Good offensive skills and great competitiveness. That is still a very attractive package and I'm struggling to come up with a good comparable in the NHL in style.

Drouin has higher offensive skills IMO.

MacKinnon sounds a little like Parise.

[djsFlames]

Do people think Drouin is comparable to Patrick Kane? Similar stature, speedy and very soft hands. This is the general feeling I've got.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

MacKinnon sounds a little like Parise.

Except that Parise is a winger.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Or it could be that the WJC's helped Drouin's confidence as he realized he could compete with the best in the world that are 1-2 years older than him.

Oh that's definitely what has happened on Drouin's end, no doubt.

Nate, however, is no longer producing at the rate he was before. This is what I'm curious about.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Except that Parise is a winger.

Really?! I thought Koivu was the winger on his line!

But seriously, I've watched Minnesota a lot this year and I love Parise. A center version of that would be well worth a pick. I think people sometimes set their sights too high with regard to prospects - you want a character first-line player, you don't go in expecting a slam-dunk hall of famer.