The OFFICIAL 2012 MLB Regular Season Thread

[Azure]

The hilarious part is that the 'substance' probably had very little to do with the season he had.

No amount of juicing or steroids can improve basic hand eye coordination.

[troutman]

I can't see the Giants welcoming back Melky now.

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/ostler/...an-3799924.php

Anything the Giants might do in the playoffs is now tainted. If they win the World Series, when they raise their championship flag, it will have a giant invisible asterisk, bigger than the Giants' logo.

A majority of baseball fans if polled right now would say the Giants don't deserve to be in the playoffs. If a NASCAR crew was caught mid-race using illegal fuel, the car would be pulled out of the race.

If the Giants do make the playoffs, the players will have to deal with the Melky question. This won't be like 2010, when critics of the Giants could call the lads lucky, but nobody could call them cheaters.

That's one downside to juicing in a team sport: If you're caught, you don't wallow in the mud alone; you drag the whole team into the sty.

The Giants' players, at least some of them, had to be suspicious all along. We all should have been. When a .275 hitter suddenly becomes a .340 hitter at age 27, players know that's unusual.

The Giants can't let Cabrera come back, this season or ever. They're so lucky he turned down the three-year deal they just offered him. Now all they have to do is alert stadium security to keep him out.

http://www.sfgate.com/giants/shea/ar...ra-3794698.php

Hardly a soul in the Giants' clubhouse expressed support for Melky Cabrera. Several players were given an opportunity to voice an opinion on their tainted teammate, and they didn't line up to say they'll have Cabrera's back during his 50-game suspension.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Azure

The hilarious part is that the 'substance' probably had very little to do with the season he had.

No amount of juicing or steroids can improve basic hand eye coordination.

No, but increasing your bat speed, or being able to fend off fatigue can help a player hit balls harder, square up on balls that they would normally foul off. Baseball truely is a game of fractional increments. A split second of timing, or quarter inch towards the good part of the bat can make a huge difference.

I guess though, when you think about it...if Cabrera wasn't using anything and put up a season like this, what does he get as a free agent contract? Probably a Vernon Wells type deal, something nuts like 100 million over 6 years. Now what's he looking at what, a 2 year contract for like 5 million if he's lucky, and proabaly a 1 year deal. Not that it's chump change, but it almost blows your mind as to how much money was at stake...You'd think they'd cook up a better scheme for cheating than what they did!

[troutman]

Conte: Drug use 'rampant' in professional baseball
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/M.../20110381.html

The use of performance-enhancing drugs is rampant in baseball, BALCO founder Victor Conte told USA Today.

"I would say maybe as much as half of baseball (is using PEDs)," said Conte, whose supplements company was linked to sluggers Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi, among others, when it was raided by the FBI in 2003.

"I'm not going to name names. But I've talked to a lot of top players in Major League Baseball, and they tell me this is what they're doing. There is rampant use of synthetic testosterone."

MLB vice-president Rob Manfred doubted Conte's statement

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

No, but increasing your bat speed, or being able to fend off fatigue can help a player hit balls harder, square up on balls that they would normally foul off. Baseball truely is a game of fractional increments. A split second of timing, or quarter inch towards the good part of the bat can make a huge difference.

I guess though, when you think about it...if Cabrera wasn't using anything and put up a season like this, what does he get as a free agent contract? Probably a Vernon Wells type deal, something nuts like 100 million over 6 years. Now what's he looking at what, a 2 year contract for like 5 million if he's lucky, and proabaly a 1 year deal. Not that it's chump change, but it almost blows your mind as to how much money was at stake...You'd think they'd cook up a better scheme for cheating than what they did!

There are a ton of GREAT players that do all that without juicing. Sorry, but I disagree that 'juicing' can significantly improve all those things.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Azure

There are a ton of GREAT players that do all that without juicing. Sorry, but I disagree that 'juicing' can significantly improve all those things.

I think you led a debate on this in the past.

How do you explain a .275 hitter suddenly becomes a .340 hitter at age 27? Placebo effect?

Is Conte right in saying 50% of players are still cheating in 2012?

Melky took a calculated risk in his contract year that could have made him $100M perhaps. He was prepared to cheat.

[Flickered Flame]

The A's have just acquired Stephen Drew from the D-backs. He has struggled all year long but is still an upgrade at short for the A's and the best part is he only cost them a very marginal minor league infielder.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by troutman

I think you lead a debate on this in the past.

How do you explain a .275 hitter suddenly becomes a .340 hitter at age 27? Placebo effect?

Is Conte right in saying 50% of players are still cheating in 2012?

Melky took a calculated risk in his contract year that could have made him $100M perhaps. He was prepared to cheat.

First of all, juicing does not suddenly MAKE someone bigger, faster or stronger. Bonds was already a hell of a player before he juiced. Did it help him? Maybe, but I don't think that the difference is so significant.

People look at Bonds and how big he got, and instantly think steroids. I look at Bonds and how big and ripped he got, and think "someone spent a lot of time in the gym." Which is what he did. No matter how many steroids he took, if he didn't dedicate a large portion of his life to fitness/nutrition, nothing changes.

Same thing for Melky. There is no way in HELL that his hand-eye, bat speed, or any other intangible that made him a great player this year improves if he doesn't spend a SIGNIFICANT time practising it.

What does juicing do? It helps you train better, in terms of faster recovery time, ability to add muscle faster, etc, etc. It does not suddenly make someone a great baseball player. If you find scientific proof to back that up, come tell me. Me and the rest of the world would LOVE to see it.

Fact is, no way Melky gets better without training to be better. Did juicing give him an advantage during training? Perhaps. But I don't believe for a second that it makes such a huge difference.

A-Rod is the same player before and after steroids. Why? Because steroids can't make someone be a natural talent.

[Azure]

Also, 27 is not that old. In fact for most players we would consider it the age where they enter their prime. Especially in baseball, where the overwhelming majority of players only start playing around the age 22. Mike Trout is a big time exception to the rule. As is Bryce Harper.

So I wouldn't call it crazy at all that someone can go from hitting .275 to hitting .340 from one year to the next. I think there is such a thing as someone having a good season(we've seen it before), or even someone spending a LOT of time perfecting a swing, on conditioning, and strength training....to the point where they can make such an improvement.

Adrian Beltre never came close to putting up the production he is putting up now with the Rangers while he was with the Mariners. Should I assume he wasn't juicing while he was with the Mariners, but started juicing again when he went to Texas? He had 1 good season before signing in Seattle. Everyone thought he was a one-hit wonder after his years in Seattle. Instead, he goes to Texas and puts up that big run production again. Things just went right for him. Nobody can explain it, and I think its extremely dumb to blame it on steroids.

Every damn time an athlete makes significant improvement in whatever sport they play, people instantly think steroids.

[Sylvanfan]

So you admit that the use of Testosterone helps these players train better, recover faster, and not break down.

Alex Rodriguez was better on steroids. He was hitting 50+ home runs playing the toughest position in baseball in the Texas heat.

I don't think you take steroids and instantly become better. But testosterone is exactly as it's described, a performance enhancing drug. Take it and put in the work, and most every player will see an increase in their performance. Not to mention what the increased confidence can do for a player.

Melty Cabrera could have been a .310/.350/.450 hitter guy this year based on career history with a good offseason of training and more experience. his numbers were significantly better than that.

[troutman]

Thanks for responding Azure. I don't know what the answer is, and would like to do some more research. Logic would seem to tell us that PEDs are giving athletes a significant advantage, but what is the scientific evidence?

As for Barry Bonds, he hit an unreal number of home runs in 2001 in SF, a park where it is very difficult to hit home runs, even to right field. I want to take a closer look at this later.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/feats0.shtml

ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/ubcujp/article/download/2509/182447
Abstract
Performance-enhancing drug scandals have tarnished the reputation of many professional
athletes in a wide variety of sports, from baseball to swimming to cycling. This paper will
examine the literature in order to determine the effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS)
on both performance and physical as well as psychological health; the prevalence in both
professional and amateur sports; how steroids are used; how they produce their intended
effects; and a brief history of doping in sport and relevant organizations created to deal with
doping in sport. The literature will be reviewed and used to conclude that anabolic-androgenic
steroid use should not be allowed a place in the professional sporting environment. Analysis of
this question proves to be increasingly relevant as more players are indicted for illegal use of
performance-enhancing drugs, and as the ethics of “cheating” by using PEDs are cited as a
reason to keep great athletes from the Hall of Fame.

http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Ci...ogenic.23.aspx

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

So you admit that the use of Testosterone helps these players train better, recover faster, and not break down.

Alex Rodriguez was better on steroids. He was hitting 50+ home runs playing the toughest position in baseball in the Texas heat.

I don't think you take steroids and instantly become better. But testosterone is exactly as it's described, a performance enhancing drug. Take it and put in the work, and most every player will see an increase in their performance. Not to mention what the increased confidence can do for a player.

Melty Cabrera could have been a .310/.350/.450 hitter guy this year based on career history with a good offseason of training and more experience. his numbers were significantly better than that.

Derek Jeter is on pace for 222 hits. That would be a career high for him. He's also 38 years old. Should we assume he's juicing too?

A-Rod had a lot of GOOD years where he didn't take steroids.

Ichiro was a .260 hitter two years with the Mariners. He gets traded to the Yankees, and suddenly he's a .320 hitter. He's also 38 years old(IIRC). Steroids? Or just a different team, different approach = better results?

There are a lot of things the media doesn't analyse when they talk about the improvements a player makes. Go watch video of Melky from 3 years ago, and then watch video of him now. His swing is WAY more refined. More smooth, more NATURAL. How is that possible? Its called spending a lot of time with a good hitting coach. Its not the first time in history that someone has practised at something and it actually showed on the field.

ZMA, which you can buy at any supplement store, is advertised as increasing testosterone levels. They even did a trial to back up their claim. What is it? Zinc, Magnesium and Vitamin B. Take it in combination and you get some crazy-ass dreams, not to mention better recovery time, and like I said, increased testosterone levels. They better ban it, considering its obviously enhancing performance. Doesn't matter if the ingredients are just normal vitamins. Essential vitamins too.

I find it laughable that 'performance enhancing drugs' are so bad. Lance Armstrong had a higher V02max, greater lactic acid threshold, and lower resting pulse(30s), not to mention a condition where he doesn't feel 'pain' like we do when we go through a hard workout. What kind of unfair advantage is that? To this day everyone is still accusing him of doping. Its ridiculous.

Science has come up with certain ways to improve 'training'...and the whole world has a problem with that because they think its 'unfair.'

Joe Defranco sat down and came up with a better method to improve the time it takes to do the 3 cone drill. The athletes he gets ready for the NFL combine did so well at it that the NFL changed the rules. What did he change? Foot placement. I guess that is extremely unfair. Instead of praising the man for coming up with a revolutionary way to significantly improve the time that make or break the combine for the athletes competing, the NFL changes the rules.

Its 2012. Time to admit that there is nothing wrong with athletes using performance enhancing drugs to help with their training.

Derek Jeter is a generational talent. But the rumours of him juicing are simply going to keep getting bigger and bigger because he's having his best year ever. Unbelievable.

[Sylvanfan]

Look at the money that's on the line in Baseball for players. Thats a lot of incentive for them to push the limits in terms of performance enhancing substances. Olympic athletes with the exception of the professionals from marquee sports don't have the financial resources to be able to outpace the testing the IOC invests in.

Yet the professional sports leagues in North America feel it's completely acceptable to use the IOC testing as a benchmark. I think a sport like Baseball where more money is at stake for the individual players than any other sport in North America has to be a leader in terms of how it's testing the players.

The financial gains that a baseball player can achieve and the fame that goes with it, seem an awfully tempted carrot to me. I don't know what the number is...but I think it's a business that has a significant bankroll backing it. Plus MLB itself doesn't seem to mind as better performing athletes should give the fans better entertainment. So long as they catch the odd guy they can claim their policy is adequate for drug testing.

[nik-]

Derek Jeter would be the only player where it would legitimately shock me if he was juicing.

But Ken Griffey Jr is the only player where it would legitimately break my heart if he juiced. Considering how his career played out though and how he broke down as he got older ... like a normal human, it doesn't seem likely he did.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Azure

I find it laughable that 'performance enhancing drugs' are so bad. Lance Armstrong had a higher V02max, greater lactic acid threshold, and lower resting pulse(30s), not to mention a condition where he doesn't feel 'pain' like we do when we go through a hard workout. What kind of unfair advantage is that? To this day everyone is still accusing him of doping. Its ridiculous.

You just lost me, if you think Lance wasn't doping.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Look at the money that's on the line in Baseball for players. Thats a lot of incentive for them to push the limits in terms of performance enhancing substances. Olympic athletes with the exception of the professionals from marquee sports don't have the financial resources to be able to outpace the testing the IOC invests in.

Yet the professional sports leagues in North America feel it's completely acceptable to use the IOC testing as a benchmark. I think a sport like Baseball where more money is at stake for the individual players than any other sport in North America has to be a leader in terms of how it's testing the players.

The financial gains that a baseball player can achieve and the fame that goes with it, seem an awfully tempted carrot to me. I don't know what the number is...but I think it's a business that has a significant bankroll backing it. Plus MLB itself doesn't seem to mind as better performing athletes should give the fans better entertainment. So long as they catch the odd guy they can claim their policy is adequate for drug testing.

Sounds like a lot of speculation and very little proof. I know it can mean hundreds of millions of dollars if you have one good season, but there is no way in hell a 2nd tier player EVER has a great season simply because he juiced.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by nik-

Derek Jeter would be the only player where it would legitimately shock me if he was juicing.

But Ken Griffey Jr is the only player where it would legitimately break my heart if he juiced. Considering how his career played out though and how he broke down as he got older ... like a normal human, it doesn't seem likely he did.

Why would it shock you? He was showing all the signs of getting old, and suddenly at 38 he's having a career year. There is a reason everyone is saying he is juicing.

Not that I believe it. Jeter has WAY too much class and integrity to do something stupid like that. He's a generational talent. No need to juice. I wouldn't be surprised if he put in a lot more effort in the off-season. Pretty sure I recall something about him spending a lot of time on his batting too.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by troutman

You just lost me, if you think Lance wasn't doping.

Is there any proof he was doping? I mean like real proof, and not speculation.

Lance is a freak of nature. He's not made like the rest of us, which is why he could come back from cancer and still kick ass.

There are a lot of powerful people that wish they could prove he was doping. I don't believe for a second that he was.

[Azure]

Also, if you want to talk about someone like Bonds bulking up so much and being able to hit homers at will in a ballpark where it IS hard to hit homers, Ichiro has been known for launching bombs in batting practice. He's 5'9'', and like 160#.

Just goes to show that bigger and stronger doesn't automatically mean better.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Sounds like a lot of speculation and very little proof. I know it can mean hundreds of millions of dollars if you have one good season, but there is no way in hell a 2nd tier player EVER has a great season simply because he juiced.

Brady Anderson. I win.