Flames 2013 Draft Discussion

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Nobody should be reading much into Sven's last season. It really doesn't alter my opinion on him, because it was absurd to expect him to immediately step up in his rookie season. But 10 points in 20 games for production is excellent for any player in that situation. He's already producing at a higher click than Backlund was in his debut. You just know that he's bound to be a top 6 once he gets the hang of the speed and physicality of the big league, he's too skilled not too.

Baertschi's production is marginally better than Backlunds. At 20 years old, Backlund put up 10 points in 23 games playing a minute less ice-time per game.

Based on their play, Baerstchi is showing the same promise Backlund did that age, which is the right stage for him to be right now.

[Erick Estrada]

Baertschi has been overrated by Flames fans but he is a good prospect and looks like he can be an NHL player. Right now I'm 50/50 if he's going to be a top 3 forward or a guy like Backlund that can be a 4-9 range forward. He really wasn't very good in the 2013 season but hopefully with a full training camp and another year getting older and stronger he will have a better season in the coming season.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Drafting for the Flames:

You simply can not put a start date and an end date on the 'regime changes'.

Why did Darryl have so many terrible drafts? When he took over, there were barely any scouts or development. Darryl over the years convinced the owners to invest in scouting and player development - which is why they went out and started up the Heat.

It is a slow progression (and I would expect it to be so, right?) from the end of Button's time as GM (where there was not very much emphasis on scouting) to Darryl taking over and slowly getting that turned around for the Flames' Organization, to Feaster continuing that evolution.

Sutter sucked at drafting for the most part, because the scouting department sucked. Once it started building, and guys like Todd Button started learning more (you have to figure after 'x' number of years, scouts simply just start getting better) the drafting really improved. You got drafts with Phaneuf (ok, that was a gimme), Backlund, Erixon.. then the 'awesome' draft of 2010 where we picked up Reinhart, Arnold, etc.

You have to be very, very negative not to admit that the drafting is improving. The Flames have already started reaping some of the rewards. I look at a guy like Horak, and that was all scouting btw, but I won't count him. Backlund, Brodie, Reinhart, Bouma and Baertschi have all had NHL playing time, and they all look poised to be contributors at some capacity or other.

People love to crap on Sutter for poor drafting, but they often fail to look at the WHY that is.

Also, you can't sit there and say that since Calgary sucked at drafting for the last 15 years, to not expect something different. If that was your argument, it is a HUGE fail. Why? INVESTMENT. The difference from that time to now is a HUGELY increased level of investment in not only scouting, but also on player development. You HAVE to expect at least a certain level of increase in success.

I wanted Todd Button fired years ago - I thought he was horribly incompetent. However, he has learned on the job it seems - cost the Flames a lot while doing so - but he seems to be a much better talent evaluator now.

It isn't such a simple argument to make just because the Flames USED to suck at drafting. The Flames were also one of the BEST (perhaps THE very best) drafting team in the 80's. So why wouldn't I just make the argument that the Flames are one of the best drafting teams in the NHL now? It is faulty logic, because it totally misses every single reason as to why they went through a horrible stretch of poor drafting.

Had the Flames not been committing to this level of investment in drafting and development, I would also be someone yelling out not to expect anything different, and that the Flames suck at it. However, with the increased investment, the increased bodies that are starting to contribute to the team, and the increased value of most prospects selected since every draft, I would think it safe to say that the Flames are at the VERY least improving.

[browna]

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

Video segment by Roger Millions:

Flames version of Moneyball

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/f...-of-moneyball/

Good piece by Roger.

Chris Snow is likely sweating bullets...a lot of empirical data that he's going to give Feaster, and, while useful, is only half the battle.

Though I don't see Jonah Hill and Brad Pitt ever being cast as a Snow/Feaster likeness.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Baertschi has been overrated by Flames fans but he is a good prospect and looks like he can be an NHL player. Right now I'm 50/50 if he's going to be a top 3 forward or a guy like Backlund that can be a 4-9 range forward. He really wasn't very good in the 2013 season but hopefully with a full training camp and another year getting older and stronger he will have a better season in the coming season.

I wholeheartedly agree on Baertschi being overrated, especially those ridiculous posts about Rattie being terrible and Baertschi being his only reason for success.

Having said that, his creativity and finish is miles ahead of Backlund. Like Backlund though, he seems to struggle with strength

[browna]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Having said that, his creativity and finish is miles ahead of Backlund. Like Backlund though, he seems to struggle with strength

From the talk from Wisebrod posted earlier, that's apparently been ok to have weaklings...it means they can be apparently molded to become stronger with the proper training regiment.

I know what he's saying, but its not always that cut and dried. Just throwing a guy into the weight room with Rich Hesketh for a month, especially if those guys have never properly worked out supposedly, yet gotten to this level as a player, isn't going to necessarily take, or mean he ends up "hockey" strong.

Not quite is alarming as "we'll help him work on his skating" when talking about a prospect or draft pick, but sometimes guys "needing to be bigger/stronger" can have that strength training take away from some of the skills and ability that has gotten them to where they are.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by browna

I know what he's saying, but its not always that cut and dried. Just throwing a guy into the weight room with Rich Hesketh for a month, especially if those guys have never properly worked out supposedly, yet gotten to this level as a player, isn't going to necessarily take, or mean he ends up "hockey" strong.

Yeah I was kind of disappointed when I heard he would prefer a soft kid over a kid that hits the gym. Some guys are like Kyle Wellwood and not every kid has it in them to become a work out warrior. We hear of veteran players coming to camps out of shape every year and to me if a kid doesn't have that mentality at a young age he may never get it. IMO a kid that is taking care of his body at a young age has a much higher chance of maintaining that throughout a career but that's just my personal theory. The fact that Crosby was always so serious about his body is what has separated him from other players and I don't think you can overlook that some kids have more drive than others and no amount of training will change that. Maybe the Flames are smarter than everyone else.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah I was kind of disappointed when I heard he would prefer a soft kid over a kid that hits the gym. Some guys are like Kyle Wellwood and not every kid has it in them to become a work out warrior. We hear of veteran players coming to camps out of shape every year and to me if a kid doesn't have that mentality at a young age he may never get it. IMO a kid that is taking care of his body at a young age has a much higher chance of maintaining that throughout a career but that's just my personal theory. The fact that Crosby was always so serious about his body is what has separated him from other players and I don't think you can overlook that some kids have more drive than others and no amount of training will change that. Maybe the Flames are smarter than everyone else.

He never said that though. Here's his actual quote.

While a superbly conditioned athlete speaks to dedication and discipline, it also hints at a potentially maxed-out player.
“He’s already physically dominant . . . so it lowers his ceiling a little bit in terms of how much growth he still has left,” said Weisbrod. “Sometimes if I watch a guy on the ice and he’s a great player, then his tests at the combine are bad — he hasn’t learned to work out yet — I actually get more excited about that. Because then you think, ‘Boy, if we ever get this guy stronger,’ he’s really going to be something.
“I can’t say that I put a lot of stock into the physical testing.”

[dammage79]

Either way, all signs point to Lindholm and Monahan. Both can still grow into their bodies and have great hockey sense.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Drafting for the Flames:

You simply can not put a start date and an end date on the 'regime changes'.

Why did Darryl have so many terrible drafts? When he took over, there were barely any scouts or development. Darryl over the years convinced the owners to invest in scouting and player development - which is why they went out and started up the Heat.

It is a slow progression (and I would expect it to be so, right?) from the end of Button's time as GM (where there was not very much emphasis on scouting) to Darryl taking over and slowly getting that turned around for the Flames' Organization, to Feaster continuing that evolution.

Sutter sucked at drafting for the most part, because the scouting department sucked. Once it started building, and guys like Todd Button started learning more (you have to figure after 'x' number of years, scouts simply just start getting better) the drafting really improved. You got drafts with Phaneuf (ok, that was a gimme), Backlund, Erixon.. then the 'awesome' draft of 2010 where we picked up Reinhart, Arnold, etc.

You have to be very, very negative not to admit that the drafting is improving. The Flames have already started reaping some of the rewards. I look at a guy like Horak, and that was all scouting btw, but I won't count him. Backlund, Brodie, Reinhart, Bouma and Baertschi have all had NHL playing time, and they all look poised to be contributors at some capacity or other.

People love to crap on Sutter for poor drafting, but they often fail to look at the WHY that is.

Also, you can't sit there and say that since Calgary sucked at drafting for the last 15 years, to not expect something different. If that was your argument, it is a HUGE fail. Why? INVESTMENT. The difference from that time to now is a HUGELY increased level of investment in not only scouting, but also on player development. You HAVE to expect at least a certain level of increase in success.

I wanted Todd Button fired years ago - I thought he was horribly incompetent. However, he has learned on the job it seems - cost the Flames a lot while doing so - but he seems to be a much better talent evaluator now.

It isn't such a simple argument to make just because the Flames USED to suck at drafting. The Flames were also one of the BEST (perhaps THE very best) drafting team in the 80's. So why wouldn't I just make the argument that the Flames are one of the best drafting teams in the NHL now? It is faulty logic, because it totally misses every single reason as to why they went through a horrible stretch of poor drafting.

Had the Flames not been committing to this level of investment in drafting and development, I would also be someone yelling out not to expect anything different, and that the Flames suck at it. However, with the increased investment, the increased bodies that are starting to contribute to the team, and the increased value of most prospects selected since every draft, I would think it safe to say that the Flames are at the VERY least improving.

Is that you Darryl?

Yes, he added scouts but Darryl is the reason why the drafting sucked. Tod Button mentioned that the final call was Darryl's. We missed out on good olayers because of the bias towards Western Canadian players. He never got past the game as it was played in '04 and spent too many picks on big physical players and not towards a blend of skill and grit. He failed to see the evolution in the game and the role that smaller skilled players could play. Trading away 2nd rounders and draft picks and prospects in general weakened the pipeline further.

Surrounding yourself with a bunch of yes men including your brother who shares your same vision is a classic example of groupthink and not the best way to develop a functional scouting staff, especially if you micromanage it to the extent that he did.

[Roof-Daddy]

C'mon Jay, lets use a veteran left winger or two to acquire some more picks for this draft.

[moon]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Is that you Darryl?

Yes, he added scouts but Darryl is the reason why the drafting sucked. Tod Button mentioned that the final call was Darryl's. We missed out on good olayers because of the bias towards Western Canadian players.

The Western Canadian stuff is garbage.

The best Sutter Era pick (Phaneuf) was a Western Canadian, Dustin Boyd a western canadian was fine for a 3rd rounder, Matt Pelech was as big a bust as any from Ontario, Nemisz isn't looking like a stud from the OHL, Bouma looks okay for his pick from Western Canada, Ramholt over Webber great that he didn't go Western Canadian there. Of his 7 1st round picks only 3 from Western Canada.

People can rip Sutter all they want on his drafting but the Western Canadian thing is way overblown.

Tod Button hasn't really shown anything over his career to indicate that he should get a pass on the Sutter years and if Sutter was undermining him as head scout he should have quit.

[Ashasx]

I hate when people say Baertschi is overrated by Flames fans or whatever. Every team overrates their players and prospects.

How dare we get excited about a great kid with a great attitude. Flames fans are so fickle. Doom and gloom, that's all we should talk about.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by moon

Tod Button hasn't really shown anything over his career to indicate that he should get a pass on the Sutter years and if Sutter was undermining him as head scout he should have quit.

I don't have a clue what would have went on behind the scenes there to be honest, but if anything I doubt it would have been so much "undermining" as much as it would have just been giving him different criteria to prioritize when scouting players and building his list.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I hate when people say Baertschi is overrated by Flames fans or whatever. Every team overrates their players and prospects.

How dare we get excited about a great kid with a great attitude. Flames fans are so fickle. Doom and gloom, that's all we should talk about.

I find it the exact opposite on CP. Every player or prospect on another team is normally labelled "overrated". CP tends to rate all flames prospects top 6 forwards or top 4 D men.

[Jack]

Outside of Jones, Zadorov, Nurse, Morrisey and Ristolainen, which defensemen would you like to see the Flames select?

There seem to be many interesting defenders that will go in the later half of the first round and all through the second.

I've read a few of the draft guides and a couple of guys have jumped out at me:

Chris Bigras - Sure-handed guy who isn't flashy, but rarely makes a mistake and doesn't seem to have any glaring weaknesses
Madison Bowey - Dynamic puck mover who always plays with energy
Steve Santini - Good skating defesive dman that could potentially be a top shut down guy in the NHL

Some fellers interest me on sheer potential:

Morin - because he is huge, nasty and skates well
Mueller - based on level of progress in the past year and he has ideal size

Whoever the Flames select, I hope it is someone who is good in their own zone. Mediocre play in your own zone does not cut it in crunch time.

[korzym12]

.......................Taking a break from the drama...

-What's the order of our draft picks now? Where's that at after Pit getting eliminated?

[Roof-Daddy]

Morin would be awesome, and Bowey seems like a player that if he hits, he will hit in a big way.

[albertGQ]

Originally Posted by korzym12

.......................Taking a break from the drama...

-What's the order of our draft picks now? Where's that at after Pit getting eliminated?

Most likely 28. Slight chance at 27

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by korzym12

.......................Taking a break from the drama...

-What's the order of our draft picks now? Where's that at after Pit getting eliminated?

6th
22nd
27th or 28th (28th if Kings lose to Hawks)
67th
97th
135th
157th
187th
198th