Ongoing Sci-Fi, Comic Book Movie Thread v2

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

I’m not saying the female leads are well written just that equally poorly written male leads don’t face the same criticism.

Thor vs Captian Marvel
Rey vs Luke
Anakin in phantom Menace vs Leia in Obi wan from the above video
Hermione vs Harry/Ron

Luke vs rey is a really bad example. Luke started out as a whiny child who stood no chance against Vader. Vader cut his hand off for sport. Meanwhile rey owns Ren, after barely holding a light saber. No getting frustrated moving rocks in swamps, just maiming the most powerful and well trained force user in the universe for kicks.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by blankall

Luke vs rey is a really bad example. Luke started out as a whiny child who stood no chance against Vader. Vader cut his hand off for sport. Meanwhile rey owns Ren, after barely holding a light saber. No getting frustrated moving rocks in swamps, just maiming the most powerful and well trained force user in the universe for kicks.

People point to that aspect of the magic powers miss a few things

1) Ren was shot with the bow caster which was specifically shown to destroy people. Then Finn fights Rae for a long time and Ren had just killed his father so was generally in less control. But I agree she gained her powers very quickly.

But in the second movie even after training with Luke she is easily defeated by Snoke and only saved by Ren which is very similar to empire where Luke is defeasted

2) It ignores the Mary Sue part of Luke which is flying an X-wing and destroying a Death Star and leading a commando mission in an space station to rescue a high value captive. In Luke’s case he has no skills to justify there abilities. Whereas Rae as repaired and acavamfed ships living on her own in the desert for leave whose much harder life and therefore is much more likely to be able to fight.

So the key here is that I’m not arguing Rey doesn’t magical get powers without effort, it’s that Luke out performs his levels specifically when blowing up the Death Star and raiding the Death Star and this is just ignored when complaining about Rey. It’s both or Neither.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Anakin in PM is totally a Mary Sue (I consider the trope name to be Mary Sue, the Gary Stu thing is stupid (IMO)).

Which is why it’s a misogynistic trope. Which is the point.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I don't think you can cut a character's story down into its constituent parts and call them a Mary Sue for only part of the story, any more than you can say that "X is a Mary Sue for the first five scenes of this movie". Anakin, as a character, obviously has an arc and has many obvious weaknesses and character flaws that he struggles with and ultimately succumbs to, leaving aside how terrible those movies were.

Luke also clearly changes and grows as a person a ton over the course of the original trilogy. EDIT: Actually Ahsoka probably has the most significant growth as a character in the current Star Wars canon and that's largely why she's more well liked among fans, who originally hated her character as annoying in many of the ways young Anakin was.

Also how can you possibly compare MCU Captain Marvel to Thor? Thor's been through some ####. He was clearly a deeply flawed character from the start - among other things, he was incredibly arrogant and entitled, and has been repeatedly humbled, and has not always responded well afterwards.

MCU not comics.

Anaikin the child in Phantom menance compared to Leia the child in obj wan that was brought up in Matata’s girl power video.

Rey grew and failed in the 2nd two movies in almost the identical fashion to Luke.

I agree Ashoka is a much more developeme characters.

Remember I’m not arguing that these female characters arent poorly written Im arguing that society selection of who is a Mary Sue is based on gender of characters rather than traits of characters.

[photon]

Hermione was not a Harry Sue, she worked very hard!

Saw Quantumania and it wasn't as bad as I'd been fearing. Overall pretty forgettable. Kind of ridiculous in that getting really big is a good answer to the power of a guy who has destroyed planets and timelines. Mildly amusing and sets up the next bunch of shows and movies.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by GGG

Remember I’m not arguing that these female characters arent poorly written Im arguing that society selection of who is a Mary Sue is based on gender of characters rather than traits of characters.

OK, well, it seems to me that your comparison between characters is really poorly thought through, because I absolutely don't agree that they're comparable at all. I didn't watch matata's video though, and I also haven't seen Obi Wan, so I can only really speak to what I've watched in terms of who has an arc and who doesn't. Rey's character doesn't change at all over the course of those movies, from what I can remember.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

OK, well, it seems to me that your comparison between characters is really poorly thought through, because I absolutely don't agree that they're comparable at all. I didn't watch matata's video though, and I also haven't seen Obi Wan, so I can only really speak to what I've watched in terms of who has an arc and who doesn't. Rey's character doesn't change at all over the course of those movies, from what I can remember.

Oh come on, she starts out being strangely over-powered, and ends up being ridiculously over-powered. That's growth!

[Yeah_Baby]

Mary Sue has become a misogynist dog whistle so far to the point that I struggle to even engage with anyone who uses it the context of women lead genre media.

Also I love the idea that any millennial writing media now is somehow the first generation to benefit from nepotism, as if I didn't just watch a Nicholas Kazan movie from the 90s this weel.


(also if you want to talk about Mary Sues we need to talk about Wesley Crusher and the fact that he's Eugene Wesley Roddenberry's self insert who is cool and good at everything as a literal child)

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Well... yeah. And everyone hated Wesley. Wesley was a punchline.

Look, you can use shorthand for a particular manner in which characters are frequently poorly written, or you can just say they're poorly written. Whatever floats your boat. The culture war stuff is a boring sideshow, I don't need to know what anyone's politics are to be able to tell you whether or not a TV show or movie is well written or well acted.

[Yeah_Baby]

sure, but it's fact that characters who are women aren't given as much rope as characters who are men. A male power fantasy doesn't nearly get the flack that a female power fantasy does.

To hang on star trek again, I don't really dig Disco. It's not really to my tastes. But so many folks engage in bad faith criticism it makes it hard to talk about the show in a vacuum.

I also think think videos like Cinema Sins have really had a negative impact writ large on film criticism.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Again, can't comment on Disco as I don't watch new trek at all, but if we're talking about how to do "girl boss" characters in a manner that actually has some nuance, I mean... you have a DS9 podcast. Kira Nerys. Done. More growth in S1e19 alone than half the characters Disney puts on screen, and Nana Visitor isn't even a particularly good actor.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

People point to that aspect of the magic powers miss a few things

1) Ren was shot with the bow caster which was specifically shown to destroy people. Then Finn fights Rae for a long time and Ren had just killed his father so was generally in less control. But I agree she gained her powers very quickly.

But in the second movie even after training with Luke she is easily defeated by Snoke and only saved by Ren which is very similar to empire where Luke is defeasted

2) It ignores the Mary Sue part of Luke which is flying an X-wing and destroying a Death Star and leading a commando mission in an space station to rescue a high value captive. In Luke’s case he has no skills to justify there abilities. Whereas Rae as repaired and acavamfed ships living on her own in the desert for leave whose much harder life and therefore is much more likely to be able to fight.

So the key here is that I’m not arguing Rey doesn’t magical get powers without effort, it’s that Luke out performs his levels specifically when blowing up the Death Star and raiding the Death Star and this is just ignored when complaining about Rey. It’s both or Neither.

Naw...Rey was just dumb.

Luke had been practicing with various vehicles speeding across sand dunes since he was a small child. That was literally the only thing he had to do. The most powerful force user in the galaxy being able to cross over those skills to flying an x-wing is pretty believable. Even then he had guidance from Obi Wan's force ghost.

After that incident Luke needs years of training before he can even move a light sabre with the force.

Rey had never picked up a lightsabre before. Wounded or not, Kylo Ren was the most formidable warrior in the galaxy at that point.

As for Snoke...he was ridiculously overpowered too, as were all the force users in the sequel trilogy. It was as though whoever wrote the sequel trilogy had never actually seen the original trilogy and just wrote about whatever they thought would be cool.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Luke literally says in the first movie he used to fly a T16 skyhopper and shoot womp rats for fun and as a result thinks he can hit a 2M target. It's not like he's never flown before.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

sure, but it's fact that characters who are women aren't given as much rope as characters who are men. A male power fantasy doesn't nearly get the flack that a female power fantasy does.

To hang on star trek again, I don't really dig Disco. It's not really to my tastes. But so many folks engage in bad faith criticism it makes it hard to talk about the show in a vacuum.

I also think think videos like Cinema Sins have really had a negative impact writ large on film criticism.

You can't deny that Disney is forcing the female hero issue, and it's not always working.

Even in End Game, the female characters all stop and take a moment to pose together....that was just dumb. Why would the female characters all be grouped that close to each other during a battle like that? Why would characters of those vastly different power levels all charge forward together in the same role?

Disney is clearly putting their own marketing and image ahead of good storytelling. Even then, Disney doesn't get it right. Why are the female characters posing, removing their masks, and flipping their hair. Why are all the actors who play them conventionally attractive? They couldn't find a single female actor who looks like an MMA fighter or a powerlifter? You know, people who might actually be proficient in battle.

The strange part is that they already have a bunch of solid female material to work with. Characters like Gamora, the Wasp, and the Scarlet Witch have strong lore and great stories behind them. Disney is instead choosing to go for PR stunts.

If you want to do diversity, you need to actually give the diverse characters proper storylines. Cramming in a bunch of female characters and giving them awful storytelling is simply counterproductive.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Luke literally says in the first movie he used to fly a T16 skyhopper and shoot women rats for fun and as a result thinks he can hit a 2M target. It's not like he's never flown before.

Meanwhlie the Jedi knights, who are trained from birth use a training blade for many years before they can handle a lightsaber.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Luke literally says in the first movie he used to fly a T16 skyhopper and shoot women rats for fun and as a result thinks he can hit a 2M target. It's not like he's never flown before.

A T16 which is an air speeder not a spacecraft somehow with no training is able to fly in zero / limited gravity?

A T16 which was retconned to be made by the same corporation as the x-wing to give cover to the ridiculousness

If we are going to excuse the trench run let’s at least say R2 is force sensitive and did everything for him.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Luke literally says in the first movie he used to fly a T16 skyhopper and shoot women rats for fun and as a result thinks he can hit a 2M target. It's not like he's never flown before.

Womp rats dude! Womp rats!

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Hah, fixed... I'm assuming my phone autocorrected that but frankly "womp" should be in my dictionary anyway.

Originally Posted by GGG

A T16 which is an air speeder not a spacecraft somehow with no training is able to fly in zero / limited gravity?

Uh, yeah? I mean it looks like this...



Maybe just for me but it doesn't strain credulity that if you've been flying one of those all your life you could fly an XWing. We're getting SUPER nitpicky here, though.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

EDIT: Delete.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Luke literally says in the first movie he used to fly a T16 skyhopper and shoot womp rats for fun and as a result thinks he can hit a 2M target. It's not like he's never flown before.

Luke letting go of his preconceptions and learning to trust the Force is the culmination his individual growth and provides a meaningful resolution to the plot of the movie. Luke required mentorship, training, humility and support from many others to pull this off, he only wields the force for a moment and requires a lot of additional time and training to get to that level again. These things are all off-limits to a girl-boss.