Conservatives To Slash Federal Funding of Political Parties [Update-CPC backs down]

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Ok...

This just might go down as one of the greatest political blunders in the history of Canada.

In case you haven't clued in... This has nothing to do with the subsidies. This was planned out before the mini-budget was even announced.

It's ok. You can thank me later.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Looks like Jack Layton will be the one running this country. Don't worry, I'm sure we'll be fine.

well that new country would still be a 9 province county

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

No it isn't. Not even close.

How isn't it? If Harper didn't try to bankrupt the other parties with a blatant partisan provision in the mini-budget, do you really think this would have happened?

The Liberals would have likely supported the mini-budget without that provision and this we wouldn't be having this discussion. The Conservatives attempted to bankrupt their opposition and the plan failed miserably as the opposition is uniting. It doesn't matter anymore to the opposition that the Conservatives removed the provision.

For political reasons now, the Liberals can't back off until the Conservatives promise some sort of stimulus, or at least a plan for stimulus based on certain conditions. Otherwise they'd be seen to be just money hungry (which they clearly are, as all politicians are).

Realistically any government with any sort of NDP fiscal influence is a scary proposition, and many Liberals are probably very skeptical of this whole scenario. It will be up to the Conservatives to decide how this will all play out. I doubt that any Liberals would actually cross over to join the Conservatives (or at least not enough to cause a majority).

If the Conservatives just directly work with the Liberals, they could eliminate the fringe groups. Considering this is a budget and fiscally the Liberals and Conservatives are pretty close, this shouldn't be hard to do. Our minority government needs to compromise.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Oh wow. Sour grapes much? I really don't know what to say to this. My mom is an NDP supporter and Campaign manager, and there's a couple NDPers who post here soooo I'll give you a chance to edit your post and leave a very nice apology before flaming back.

I'll go a step further, The NDP (same for the green party) have the luxury of not having much responsibility since they know their party would never be in power. They platforms are nice, but have no basis in reality.

You will find a very strong correlation between people who have or currently do have roles in society that are more important than average and people who do not like the NDP.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by peter12

Doesn't say much for the intelligence of the average NDP voter, but I've known this for a very long time.

Well, in this case, NDP voters know this is the only way they will ever hold power. This isn't a lack of intelligence so much as it is a giant case of pragmatism.

The NDP will never form a government. This is the next best thing to democracy.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Ya, makes me sick too. Harper certainly shares some of the blame for trying to push through a measure that the opposition parties had to react to because it was a strike at their jugulars ... ie, their subsidy entitlement. I agree in principle with eliminating that subsidy, but Harper should have known better than to back them into a corner like that with a minority government. However, he's backed away from that move, and it now seems clear that while that was the initial excuse for the coalition to go into action, that's not really the true root cause and this scenario would have emerged regardless.

I am almost certain that GG Jean will accept the coalition too, and that Harper, Layton and Dion all know this. The Liberals and NDP, particularly the Liberals, are in no position to stage an election right now. They don't have the money, and I suspect the electorate would not be too kind to either party over this. I don't think they would be playing hardball like this unless they know they can grab power without having to face an election to do so.

If it's known that the GG will accept the coalition, that would also explain why Harper is backtracking on the subsidy and other issues (banning essential service strikes). Harper's ego doesn't allow him to back off easily, so I'm a little surprised he's doing this, unless he knows where this is headed if it winds up in the GG's lap. It also would indicate he must know or believe this won't go to an election. I think an election would be in his favour and he wouldn't be back pedaling if he thought an election would be the outcome of it all.

Some have suggested Harper might have planned all this to try to force an election, but misjudged the Liberals and NDP actually getting into bed with the Bloc, but that just doesn't sound right to me. Why would Harper try to force an election just 6 weeks after he won a strengthened mandate? That just doesn't seem like a likely scenario to me.

Whatever all the back room machinations are that created this mess, it's turning into a disaster for the country.

You might be right about this being inevitable--but I don't really think so; it doesn't add up politically. In fact, this scenario still doesn't add up if the parties are thought to have an eye on their long-term prospects for governing as well as achieving a short-term grasp on power. I think we're still playing chicken, and to actually go through with it would be a risky move for the opposition parties, with the Liberals having the most to lose. Given that, I have to think there's still a chance for Harper to salvage a workable minority government, though he now can't do it without the Bloc, and he's really screwed himself by turning the first budget motion into a game of brinkmanship.

It's certainly possible that the other parties would have done the same thing on the next confidence motion--but I sort of doubt it. This kind of move needs at least a little bit of political cover, and Harper gave it to them by acting as though he could depend on winning confidence motions all year long. He's miscalculated--badly.

Now it's up to the Liberals not to overplay THEIR hand. If they assume the reins of government, they may find themselves munching on a very tasty turd sandwich of their own devising in about 8 months. But no-one asked me, I guess...

[peter12]

If the Conservatives just directly work with the Liberals, they could eliminate the fringe groups. Considering this is a budget and fiscally the Liberals and Conservatives are pretty close, this shouldn't be hard to do. Our minority government needs to compromise

I can actually kind of agree with this statement here. The party with the most to lose is the Liberals if they engage in a coalition government with the Bloc. I do hope cooler heads in the Liberal Party prevail and people like John McCallum are locked out of any big boy discussions.

They had the former president of the Liberal Party on Question Period on CTV and even he was like WTF are the Liberals doing...?

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by C_Rush

The only way I can the Conservatives pulling this out of the fire is somehow convincing 12 Liberals to cross the aisle and form a majority government. Does Harper have the political savvy to pull off such a daunting task???

I think this is more likely to happen if or when a coalition starts passing legislation that some of the members in the coalition are against. However, there may be enough of them that object to getting in bed with the separatists. You would think so anyway.

Maybe the Liberals will convince Paul Martin to rejoin the cabinet. I think he was a pretty good Finance Minister.

I've seen this movie before with Joe Clark, and it ended badly for the West with the NEP. Right now I can see Trudeau up in heaven saying, "The world is unfolding as it should".

The Conservatives have asked for input from its members. I know what I'm going to say, but I don't wish to put it into print.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by ikaris

How isn't it? If Harper didn't try to bankrupt the other parties with a blatant partisan provision in the mini-budget, do you really think this would have happened?

The Liberals would have likely supported the mini-budget without that provision and this we wouldn't be having this discussion. The Conservatives attempted to bankrupt their opposition and the plan failed miserably as the opposition is uniting. It doesn't matter anymore to the opposition that the Conservatives removed the provision.

For political reasons now, the Liberals can't back off until the Conservatives promise some sort of stimulus, or at least a plan for stimulus based on certain conditions. Otherwise they'd be seen to be just money hungry (which they clearly are, as all politicians are).

Realistically any government with any sort of NDP fiscal influence is a scary proposition, and many Liberals are probably very skeptical of this whole scenario. It will be up to the Conservatives to decide how this will all play out. I doubt that any Liberals would actually cross over to join the Conservatives (or at least not enough to cause a majority).

If the Conservatives just directly work with the Liberals, they could eliminate the fringe groups. Considering this is a budget and fiscally the Liberals and Conservatives are pretty close, this shouldn't be hard to do. Our minority government needs to compromise.

You need to read this thread.

This is NOT about the subsidies. This was PLANNED before the mini-budget was ever announced! You're being conned if you think this is about anything other than Jack Layton wanting power, and the Separatists of Quebec wanting whatever they can get from him after he gets it.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

You will find a very strong correlation between people who have or currently do have roles in society that are more important than average and people who do not like the NDP.

Really? Undoubtedly you are in possession of reams upon reams of links to substantiate this generalization.

Either that or it's total partisan nonsense. Give your head a shake.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, in this case, NDP voters know this is the only way they will ever hold power. This isn't a lack of intelligence so much as it is a giant case of pragmatism.

The NDP will never form a government. This is the next best thing to democracy.

This belief is just so unbelievable to me. Just because it benefits your party it doesn't make it democratic.

It is by definition the exact opposite of democracy. The voters didn't vote for a merged party, they voted for 2 mutually independant parties with different platforms. If they wanted to create new parties voters should have a choice to decide on that.

Lefties are throwing morals in the garbage can the first second they see a way manufacture a coup.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by peter12

Sorry for insulting your mom?

My question is, what do NDP'ers believe in? They seem extremely willing to sell out their values or leverage whatever power they have at any given moment, so what is their purpose?

NDPers believe that the Conservatives are bad for the country. They believe that the systems and laws they pass are secretive and are aimed at allowing them to govern without oversight of the people. Whether it's socially or economically. They believe that the Conservatives are all about keeping the rich rich and then downtrodden trodden on. That the only people the Conservatives are looking out for are the people who financed their campaigns. Whether it's true or not, it's an entitled opinion and does not make them idiots or stupid. What does people people stupid is going straight to insulting people because they disagree with you and your philosophy.

You have a habit of going straight to that, so perhaps you should stay out of these conversations, yes?

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by peter12

I can actually kind of agree with this statement here. The party with the most to lose is the Liberals if they engage in a coalition government with the Bloc. I do hope cooler heads in the Liberal Party prevail and people like John McCallum are locked out of any big boy discussions.

They had the former president of the Liberal Party on Question Period on CTV and even he was like WTF are the Liberals doing...?

In fact, that might well be Harper's smart play--to approach one of the other Caucus leaders with his hat in hand ready to offer some concessions in order to move forward with an effective majority. If he's willing to swallow his pride and do it, we all may come out of this with a stable government--that would be kind of nice.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

You need to read this thread.

This is NOT about the subsidies. This was PLANNED before the mini-budget was ever announced! You're being conned if you think this is about anything other than Jack Layton wanting power, and the Separatists of Quebec wanting whatever they can get from him after he gets it.

I have been reading this thread. Probably why I'm posting in it too. Sure, the NDP and Bloc have been talking before... that is all the Conservatives are suggesting. The Liberals didn't get involved until the Conservatives' partisanship.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

NDPers believe that the Conservatives are bad for the country. They believe that the systems and laws they pass are secretive and are aimed at allowing them to govern without oversight of the people. Whether it's socially or economically. They believe that the Conservatives are all about keeping the rich rich and then downtrodden trodden on. That the only people the Conservatives are looking out for are the people who financed their campaigns. Whether it's true or not, it's an entitled opinion and does not make them idiots or stupid. What does people people stupid is going straight to insulting people because they disagree with you and your philosophy.

You have a habit of going straight to that, so perhaps you should stay out of these conversations, yes?

No, that does make them unintelligent and is totally representative of a lot of the Dippers that I know.

Do you even know what my exact philosophy is? I am pretty lenient in fact to a lot of centrists and liberals, myself being one. I don't have time for philosophies with their roots in Marxism.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by peter12

No, that does make them unintelligent and is totally representative of a lot of the Dippers that I know.

How does that make them unintelligent?

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by ikaris

I have been reading this thread. Probably why I'm, posting in it too. Sure, the NDP and Bloc have been talking before... that is all the Conservatives are suggesting. The Liberals didn't get involved until the Conservatives' partisanship.

I'm sure they have talked before. It's a bit like saying "I'm shocked.... shocked!" to find gambling in Rick's bar in Casablanca. The fake outrage over it is a little silly--Conservatives know just as well as other parties how the parliamentary system works.

Does that make it a smart move? Lord knows--I don't pretend to have all the answers about the political future of the left in Canada. But to pretend it's somehow beyond the pale, or a "coup d'etat" is very goofy.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

How does that make them unintelligent?

Basing your entire worldview on conspiracy theories and unquantifiable positions.

[Cheese]

LOL...Politics! The only facts in all of this is that Harper is a buffoon who hasnt got the charisma or ability to get his party a majority even when the rest of the parties are in turmoil. Harper is the issue plain and simple...then Conservative politics a close second. Both are extremely distasteful to most Canadians.

Anything created by the Bloc & NDP wont last past the summer and we will be in another election this fall.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by ikaris

I have been reading this thread. Probably why I'm posting in it too. Sure, the NDP and Bloc have been talking before... that is all the Conservatives are suggesting. The Liberals didn't get involved until the Conservatives' partisanship.

You're right. It turns out that it was I who didn't read your post... it actually made sense, once I got past the first sentence.

My apologies!