Sutter is the problem

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

You can't talk about earning icetime when plugs like Lucic are routinely eating up time, Ruzicka is consistently sitting and Coleman leads the team in five on five icetime. That's rich.

Andrew Mangiapane for example has averaged 18 minutes a night over the past 10 games and doesn't have a single point while being a -6. Likewise to Coleman who has 3 points in his past 15 games. These are the guy's eating up prime ice time and not performing when the team needs them.

You can't expect your best players to be your best players if they are not being afforded the opportunity to do so.

Well actually, if you play better, then you earn more ice time much like the 3rd line this season (includes Mangiapane). They've been the best line and help the team and coach win, so they get the most minutes.

Is the extra minute that Huberdeau isn't getting the difference between him producing at an elite clip vs what he currently is producing right now?

Based on what I've seen this season, the lines that typically play better from game to game, get more ice time. I mean, how often have we seen the 3rd line in the 14-15 minute range this season? Not a lot and that's because they're typically the best line on the ice for the Flames.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I love Sutter but there's no denying that the amount of ice Lucic gets is just absurd

Flames have had some pretty bad head coaches over the years and Gulutzan for example was maddening with his square peg in round hole approach. Meanwhile Sutter is one of the best coaches the organization has had but this whole Lucic thing is maybe the most bizarre player usage of any Flames head coach ever. There's no rational explanation for him playing nearly every game let alone averaging over 11 minutes in every game this season save for a stretch of three games when sanity prevailed.

[Ferarri]

Curious as to what people think Huberdeau should be getting ice time wise? Right now he averages right under 17 minutes (16:50).

2018/19 - 82 games he averaged 18:51
2019-20 - 69 games he averaged 18:46
2020-21 - 55 games he averaged 18:25
2021-22 - 80 games he averaged 19:25

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

I love the people saying play harder to earn ice time like ffs go back to when the season started from game 1 the complaint has been why is Huberdeau getting plugger like ice time.

There is absolutley zero reason Lucic should be getting 10-12 minutes a game, he is a 5-6 minute player. Apparently he earns his ice time by being a plug taking 2 strides and gliding into the neutral zone.

Last night Huberdeau was on, it was a time to get him extra shifts get him with Lindy and Toff instead we got Lucic. Huberdeau had 13 minutes of ice time and Lucic 11. The very last shift of the game Huberdeau and Lindholm out and Huberdeau gives him a great pass and he chases down the rebound but we ran out of time and Sutter said it was our best chance of the game and too late.

Yeah it was too late because the guy making those choices was too late.

Its evident he trying to stick it to the player.

Thats like paying someone 100K and asking them to do a job that takes 8 hours in 3 hours but blast them for not getting results in those 3 hours.

Dude, do you even watch hockey? When do regulars in the NHL ever average 5-6 minutes per game? Perhaps your expectations are a big reason why you're always so up in arms over everything.

And where did you even come from anyway? Says you've only been here for 6 months and you already have almost as many posts as I do in 15 years.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don’t think this is necessarily true. The hockey world is wrong all the time and a lot of these media guys don’t know squat about hockey, just take Eric Francis as an example. He’s got the same takes as drunk dudes I’ve talked to at a bar. National media aren’t that much better than fans IMO, they’re not dialed in to one specific team enough and all they see are the flashy names and make predictions from there.

When it comes to the specific decisions that Brad made though, I think he ultimately made a bad choice acquiring Huberdeau and Weegar and I’m not even saying this because it’s been a failure, I felt this way when the acquisitions were made. The styles of play that made Huberdeau and Weegar successful in Florida clashed greatly with the type of team team and system the Flames already had here and Treliving should’ve known that.

He built a Heavy checking team coupled with a coach who plays a tight checking style and thought it was a good idea to trade for two players, who played exact opposite style. That’s not good team/talent assessment.

Honestly, Treliving should’ve asked for Carter Verhaeghe instead. He caught my eye last year and I think he would’ve been a way better fit for this system, roster and coach. He’s on pace for 40 goals too, so he’s got some goal scoring touch.

Well he hasn't signed a contract, and apparently he was offered one. That's certainly some smoke indicating potential fire.

And Weegar is an elite shut down defenseman, how does that not fit Sutter?

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

Curious as to what people think Huberdeau should be getting ice time wise? Right now he averages right under 17 minutes (16:50).

2018/19 - 82 games he averaged 18:51
2019-20 - 69 games he averaged 18:46
2020-21 - 55 games he averaged 18:25
2021-22 - 80 games he averaged 19:25

Which is 144th in the league for forwards and 5th on the team for forwards. Which seems way too low for a guy about to get $10.5 and just came off a 115 pt season. I'm sure Sutter would argue he hasn't earned it and I'm sure Huberdeau would argue he hasn't been given a chance. And seeing as how that 16:50 average started from the very first game, I'd say Sutter took the "balanced ice time" theory too far. Sutter played Gaudreau and Tkachuk right around 18 mins a game last year. That's where I would have expected Huberdeau to sit. I do wonder if those two clashed personality wise right from the start.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

Curious as to what people think Huberdeau should be getting ice time wise? Right now he averages right under 17 minutes (16:50).

2018/19 - 82 games he averaged 18:51
2019-20 - 69 games he averaged 18:46
2020-21 - 55 games he averaged 18:25
2021-22 - 80 games he averaged 19:25

He's about where he probably deserves to be IMO. He's had quite a few 14-15 minute games this season (19) which has probably dropped his average. But if I think about how often his line has looked completely ineffective and invisible, that seems about right. Consistency is the key to ice time, bring the work boots every day and play effective hockey and you'll get the ice time.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

Curious as to what people think Huberdeau should be getting ice time wise? Right now he averages right under 17 minutes (16:50).

2018/19 - 82 games he averaged 18:51
2019-20 - 69 games he averaged 18:46
2020-21 - 55 games he averaged 18:25
2021-22 - 80 games he averaged 19:25

Thanks for proving our point, he should be getting the type of ice time he got scoring .9 PPG the last 4 years.

Is that unreasonable?

He needed to come here and start at 13-14 minutes a night to earn his ice time? Battling it out with the likes of Milan Lucic.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well he hasn't signed a contract, and apparently he was offered one. That's certainly some smoke indicating potential fire.

And Weegar is an elite shut down defenseman, how does that not fit Sutter?

Oh I have no idea about Treliving's contract situation and I don't really care either. I'm pretty indifferent either way.

I meant more so that the "GM did his job and now it's on the coaches and players" bit. I don't think he evaluated his team properly with the acquisitions.

Honestly, I haven't had too much problems with Weegar. He's been quite good defensively. No one can deny that his offense has dipped considerably though and that's more so what I'm talking about. He's doing his job on the other side though, but that contract is too rich for what he's bringing to the table. But it's not a back breaker at least, just overpayment.

[Philly06Cup]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

Curious as to what people think Huberdeau should be getting ice time wise? Right now he averages right under 17 minutes (16:50).

In soccer, most players play two whole 45 minute halves. In the NBA, there is load management, but superstars normally play 30-40 minutes. I see no reason why superstar NHL players, including forwards, shouldn't be playing ~30 minutes a night. They give you the best win%. Play them as much as they can handle. Fitness and conditioning has evolved immensely. Seems like a relic of the oldey-times to keep players capped at ~20minutes.

My biggest gripe for the Flames would be the minutes the 4th line is getting. Cut them to ~7minutes. And I never want to the see 4th line get an offensive zone faceoff. Ever. Flames are fighting for their playoff lives -- surely any of the other 3 lines are more likely to score and should be given those offensive starts.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don’t think this is necessarily true. The hockey world is wrong all the time and a lot of these media guys don’t know squat about hockey, just take Eric Francis as an example. He’s got the same takes as drunk dudes I’ve talked to at a bar. National media aren’t that much better than fans IMO, they’re not dialed in to one specific team enough and all they see are the flashy names and make predictions from there.

When it comes to the specific decisions that Brad made though, I think he ultimately made a bad choice acquiring Huberdeau and Weegar and I’m not even saying this because it’s been a failure, I felt this way when the acquisitions were made. The styles of play that made Huberdeau and Weegar successful in Florida clashed greatly with the type of team team and system the Flames already had here and Treliving should’ve known that.

He built a Heavy checking team coupled with a coach who plays a tight checking style and thought it was a good idea to trade for two players, who played exact opposite style. That’s not good team/talent assessment.

Honestly, Treliving should’ve asked for Carter Verhaeghe instead. He caught my eye last year and I think he would’ve been a way better fit for this system, roster and coach. He’s on pace for 40 goals too, so he’s got some goal scoring touch.

Big heavy checking Dube, Mangiapane, Backlund, Lindholm, Toffoli. Treliving sure has done Sutter dirty with these big heavy checkers.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Thanks for proving our point, he should be getting the type of ice time he got scoring .9 PPG the last 4 years.

Is that unreasonable?

He needed to come here and start at 13-14 minutes a night to earn his ice time? Battling it out with the likes of Milan Lucic.

Why would he get the minutes he got in Florida though? Those were Florida coaches and the Panthers team/organization. Wouldn't it make more sense to compare him to 21-22 Tkachuk (17:54) since you know...Darryl Sutter and Matthew is the guy Jonathan replaced?

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Thanks for proving our point, he should be getting the type of ice time he got scoring .9 PPG the last 4 years.

Is that unreasonable?

He needed to come here and start at 13-14 minutes a night to earn his ice time? Battling it out with the likes of Milan Lucic.

People tend to make this drastic comparison that he gets similar minutes to Lucic which isn't true. Lucic is averaging just over 11 minutes which is is the lowest of his career (and we can all agree that's a good thing). I would also argue like most people that it is still too high and he should probably be scratched (but that's another debate).

Huberdeau on average gets almost 6 minutes more than the guy everyone hates. Sure there is games when he's been around 15 but the averages don't lie. What exactly is that extra 2 minutes going to do for Huberdeau? If he doesn't produce in 17 minutes are we betting that his numbers would be drastically different if he got 19 a night.

As Classic_Sniper said, he's probably exactly where he needs to be.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Flames have had some pretty bad head coaches over the years and Gulutzan for example was maddening with his square peg in round hole approach. Meanwhile Sutter is one of the best coaches the organization has had but this whole Lucic thing is maybe the most bizarre player usage of any Flames head coach ever. There's no rational explanation for him playing nearly every game let alone averaging over 11 minutes in every game this season save for a stretch of three games when sanity prevailed.

Teams play about 48 minute per game at 5v5 and looking at the ice time breakdown I think this is generally the split (except for McDavid and Huberdeau who play 16 minutes per game)

Line 1: 14 Minutes
Line 2: 12 Minutes
Line 3: 12 Minutes
Line 4: 10 Minutes

The Flames at 5v5 (using a guy on each line as a proxy):

Kadri: 13:16
Backlund: 13:11
Lindholm: 12:19
Lewis: 10:08

So really I'm not sure how much of it is that the 4th line plays too much in general, I think more of the problem is the situational usage of our 4th line.

Offensive zone face off after an icing, in the last 5 minutes of a game when trailing, right after a goal, etc.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

People tend to make this drastic comparison that he gets similar minutes to Lucic which isn't true. Lucic is averaging just over 11 minutes which is is the lowest of his career (and we can all agree that's a good thing). I would also argue like most people that it is still too high and he should probably be scratched (but that's another debate).

Huberdeau on average gets almost 6 minutes more than the guy everyone hates. Sure there is games when he's been around 15 but the averages don't lie. What exactly is that extra 2 minutes going to do for Huberdeau? If he doesn't produce in 17 minutes are we betting that his numbers would be drastically different if he got 19 a night.

As Classic_Sniper said, he's probably exactly where he needs to be.

Well if hes right in his sweet spot stop complaining about his production and comparing him to guys getting leeway to play more of a chance game and ice time to do it.

His production is right in line with a Darryl Sutter coached team rolling 4 lines with star players.

Tkachuk is getting almost 21 minutes this season and people have daggers out for Treliving.

Even 1st place Boston is giving their star winger almost 20 minutes on a vet team.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Big heavy checking Dube, Mangiapane, Backlund, Lindholm, Toffoli. Treliving sure has done Sutter dirty with these big heavy checkers.

Dude, Backlund, Lindholm, Mangiapane and to a lesser extent Toffoli do play a heavy checking game. They're not necessarily big in terms of stature, but they play bigger than their size and the Backlund line probably defines Sutter's system more so than anyone else. Just because you're not physically big doesn't mean you can't use your leverage, edgework and an active stick to check and create havoc.

Dube probably struggles a bit more than the rest which is maybe why he gets the shaft from time to time, but he's made big strides in his game and Sutter said this season he was the most improved player. He doesn't get knocked down as easily any more and is much more physical in the corners.

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Well if hes right in his sweet spot stop complaining about his production and comparing him to guys getting leeway to play more of a chance game and ice time to do it.

His production is right in line with a Darryl Sutter coached team rolling 4 lines with star players.

Tkachuk is getting almost 21 minutes this season and people have daggers out for Treliving.

Even 1st place Boston is giving their star winger almost 20 minutes on a vet team.

But the point is those guys are deserving of more ice time because they've produced on most nights. Sutter gave the top line more minutes last year because they were difference makers and contributed positively. The point we are trying to make is that Huberdeau's effectiveness with his current minutes doesn't warrant more leeway or ice time. Like I said before people have always complained that ice time was given and not earned. I'm confident the coach would play Huby 18 or more minutes a night if his play dictated that type of promotion.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Well if hes right in his sweet spot stop complaining about his production and comparing him to guys getting leeway to play more of a chance game and ice time to do it.

His production is right in line with a Darryl Sutter coached team rolling 4 lines with star players.

Tkachuk is getting almost 21 minutes this season and people have daggers out for Treliving.

Even 1st place Boston is giving their star winger almost 20 minutes on a vet team.

Dude, if Huberdeau played as much as Tkachuk did last season (17:54 mins), then he'd likely have 48 points based on points per second played. Slightly more minutes isn't going to make much difference.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Why isn't Maurice giving Tkachuk 17 minutes a game? Thats what he played here in Calgary.

By the same token why is Johnny getting more ice in Columbus? He should have it reduced to match what he did here.

Its like some coaches realize to get the most out of your star players they need to be in the feel of the game and touching the puck more, but nahh Sutter knows best roll the lines.

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Why isn't Maurice giving Tkachuk 17 minutes a game? Thats what he played here in Calgary.

By the same token why is Johnny getting more ice in Columbus? He should have it reduced to match what he did here.

Its like some coaches realize to get the most out of your star players they need to be in the feel of the game and touching the puck more, but nahh Sutter knows best roll the lines.

I don't understand the point that you're trying to make. Yes, Tkachuk is averaging over 20 minutes a game, so are you saying if Huberdeau hit those same numbers here in Calgary that he would be an 87 point player as opposed to a 45 point player?