[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by nik-

The only things the Flames were interested in a partner for was the bill, and a partner that ate the vast majority of the bill at that. They presented their take or or leave it vision and it was poor. Lets not pretend it's the City being unreasonable here.

None of what you are saying is factual.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Take it or leave it vision?

I think that's a terrible way to summarize their presentation to the city. I think Ken King mentioned the term "starting point", "dialogue", etc 100 times in a three months.

You don't have to like it, you don't have to think public money should be in it, but don't let those points sway you into painting everything with a negative brush.

They presented their idea, which was a joke, and there was no plan B. Perhaps you don't want to define that as take or leave it. Maybe "Take it because we've got nothing else, because we fully expected everyone to just eat this up" ?

The mayor's comments aren't ideal from a professionalism standpoint, I'll grant that. However, the Flames can talk all they want about starting point and dialogue after the fact but they came with their "fully baked" idea and immediately went public with it without any of this seemingly important dialogue. so it's a little late to try and treat CalgaryNEXT like it was some collaboration.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by nik-

There are three Canadian markets that paid for their own arena. So that's only the way it works when government is weak.

There are only three rinks that were built entirely with private funds I believe.

The Bell Center in Montreal

Scotia Bank Place in Ottawa

GM Place in Vancouver

I believe that all of those buildings were eventually sold at a loss, that's why Owners aren't going to take the full private funding route.

If there is going to be a future new home for the Flames and the Stampeders then at some point there is going to have to be a partnership between private and public funding, probably along the lines of Mosaic or the MTS center. I doubt that we'll see a deal like the one in Edmonton.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

None of what you are saying is factual.

Except it is. Because the Flames conveniently ignore all the remediation and infrastructure costs. I get it, you're a shill, but don't try to bull#### here.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

CalgaryNEXT specifically is a stand alone project. Most people here did not want it. So saying they wanted no part of CalgaryNEXT is 100% correct. That's not saying people didn't want a new arena, I would imagine that number is between 85-99% of people want a new arena. But a new arena is an entirely different concept than CalgaryNEXT. CalgaryNEXT appeared to be amateur hour right from the start, and you only get one first impression, which they badly botched. Nenshi has nothing to do with that. As it is, it sounds like Nenshi supports plan B so be happy with that.

Ah - the old, "Be happy I'm getting anything" approach...

Obviously CalgaryNext was proposed as a single solution - that's what it was intended as. Maybe it's my turn to be naive, but I don't believe that meant there was no room to negotiate any of it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Personally I liked aspects of it (like having a football and hockey stadium together, and getting that creosote cleaned up), and didn't like other aspects of it. Would I have wanted CalgaryNext as proposed? Probably not, but I thought it was a intriguing starting point.

None of that is my point though. My point is that Nenshi wasn't open to discussions from the beginning, and he has come across as having his mind made up. Maybe they sit down, have open discussions from the beginning, and we are a year ahead of where we are now because we aren't playing games.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by nik-

Except it is. Because the Flames conveniently ignore all the remediation and infrastructure costs. I get it, you're a shill, but don't try to bull#### here.

I am far from a "shill" and there is no need to get personal or insulting.

Yes, I strongly believe in a new arena for the Flames, as is obvious.
I believe in and support CalgaryNEXT.
I also believe the message from CSEC could have been delivered better from the beginning.

I also know the City made comments to CSEC in regard to a Plan B, that they would begin a conversation, and has not done so at all, continually moving the proposed dates they would respond. Certain people are being told one thing, while Mayor Nenshi publicly states something different, even diametrically opposed.

No one knows where the City actually stands on this, and if they want to work with CSEC, then they need to state what they are prepared to do. If they are not prepared to do anything, then they should advise CSEC of that as well, but they haven't.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by nik-

They presented their idea, which was a joke, and there was no plan B. Perhaps you don't want to define that as take or leave it. Maybe "Take it because we've got nothing else, because we fully expected everyone to just eat this up" ?

The mayor's comments aren't ideal from a professionalism standpoint, I'll grant that. However, the Flames can talk all they want about starting point and dialogue after the fact but they came with their "fully baked" idea and immediately went public with it without any of this seemingly important dialogue. so it's a little late to try and treat CalgaryNEXT like it was some collaboration.

What were you expecting the Flames to say? "We want this, but in case someone is uncomfortable with aspect a or b of this approach, here are 5 other alternatives to try and make everyone happy"...

That approach doesn't make a ton of sense to me personally.

[Finger Cookin]

These discussions bring out the absolute worst in people.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I believe that all of those buildings were eventually sold at a loss, that's why Owners aren't going to take the full private funding route.

Sounds like a great place to throw our tax dollars!

Maybe they could pay players $2.2 Million instead of $2.4 Million and pay for their own depreciating assets.

I doubt that sends players flocking to the KHL.

The only reason cities pay for arenas is because the gun to the head approach of pro teams skipping town. If every city called their collective bluffs, this would no longer be an issue.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Sounds like a great place to throw our tax dollars!

Maybe they could pay players $2.2 Million instead of $2.4 Million and pay for their own depreciating assets.

LOL - hey I actually really like that!

Next CBA - no longer a 50/50 split, but 48/48, with the remaining 4% going towards a 32 year cycle where every franchise gets the money to build their own facility (obviously adjusting that number to reflect what it would really cost - I've done no math on this before).

What do you think the players will say?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Take it or leave it vision?

I think that's a terrible way to summarize their presentation to the city. I think Ken King mentioned the term "starting point", "dialogue", etc 100 times in a three months.

You don't have to like it, you don't have to think public money should be in it, but don't let those points sway you into painting everything with a negative brush.

Yeah....I have to say I'm with Nik on this one. CalgaryNEXT was a joke.

King mentioned dialogue, but just saying it doesnt make it so. It was pretty clear from the beginning that Nenshi and King were so far off the same page that any realistic dialogue was a complete non-starter.

The fact that Nenshi is just now saying CalgaryNEXT is dead is very generous because I think it really died as soon as King hit the clicker and the 'Finance' slide on his atrocious powerpoint presentation came up.

I have trashed more complete, coherent and realistic proposals than CalgaryNEXT.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Sounds like a great place to throw our tax dollars!

Maybe they could pay players $2.2 Million instead of $2.4 Million and pay for their own depreciating assets.

I doubt that sends players flocking to the KHL.

The only reason cities pay for arenas is because the gun to the head approach of pro teams skipping town. If every city called their collective bluffs, this would no longer be an issue.

It is what it is, the cities and provinces invest in these things because ultimately they're supposed to revitalize an area of the city increase the possible tax revenues and they're basically shiny.

But sitting here and saying well the owners should pay fully for them, and accept the loss lends the question of where is the incentive to do it?

Lets be honest, a few years back when there was a real threat of the team actually leaving Calgary, the owners hung on and stayed on until the league forced some level of salary control, and from that point on they've played in the dome and while they probably aren't losing money, they probably don't have a scooge mcdunk type of vault full of money with a pool full of coins.

But the problem now is that salaries are going to continue to accelerate as is the cost of operating the franchise. So the Flames and they've said this multiple times need to find other revenue streams. The only way that they're going to get those is in large part to a new facility. But they're not looking at a new facility where they're going to take a loss, that makes no sense.

At some point there is going to have to be a talk about a funding partnership, its that simple. The Flames are going to have to puck up money and as much as Nenshi is taking a strong stance against it, the city and possibly the province is going to have to buck up some money.

It certainly won't be a $400 million dollar plus deal that Edmonton gave the Oilers, which was frankly due to a weak government that gave into Katz's blackmail. I certainly don't think that the Flames owners are as ruthless as that.

But at some point whether its 20 or 30 percent of a new facility its probably going to have to happen.

Either that or the Flames owners in search of new revenue streams, and a NHL who will feel that Calgary isn't a serious NHL city will put out feelers to cities with either newer prebuilt already paid for arenas, or some US city that states that they will be a NHL partner.

[shermanator]

I, for one, am perfectly fine with how Nenshi is being blunt about CalgaryNEXT. It's been dead in the public eye from day 1, and I think the majority of the public recognizes the Flames don't have much leverage in this project outside of an appeal to emotion. Good for him for calling the project what it is.

There are far more important uses of public money, for example, building that pesky Green Line.

[Bill Bumface]

(Replying to CaptainCrunch) ^All you're saying is they can't run their business.

These are pretty normal challenges of running any kind of retail or entertainment business. You need a venue. It costs money. If you can't afford it, you need to fix your business or close up shop.

As a fan, I don't need a new arena. I'm certain I'd have just as much fun if they still played at the Corral.

If the business supports a shiny new arena because it expands their revenue stream, then they should plan for, and build it.

If they screwed up and are caught with their pants down, that's on them. Not me.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by TheFlamesVan

Wasn't it $200million? I mean...I don't mean to pile on here, but you are highlighting how hard it is to get a project like this off the ground when people voice their opinion on it based on emotion and not fact.

As I have posted many times in this thread below is a break down of building CalgaryNext vs not building CalgaryNext using the numbers from the flames report back to the city. It's a half billion dollar subsidy.

So going through the that report in detail.

The Flames ownership will contribute 450 million
The city has to contribute about 900 million.

The city will get 435 million from a CRL and 310 million from the sale of land leaving about 150 million to be financed and still want to spend another 200 million in infrastructure on the west village.

They get a field house, stadium, and arena.

Or

Remediate the land for 50 million
Spend 200 million on a field house
Spend 300 million on infastructure (Total Value not reduced amount)

Gain 460 million from selling the land (15 more acres of land)
Gain 435 from the CRL or more now that you have more land.

This leaves you with 200 million dollars in actual created value. (150 million is interest. So you are Half a billion dollars ahead if you don't build the stadium/Arena.

So is an Arena and Stadium worth half a billion. I think we get the Arena for 100 million in infastructure around Stampede.

[dre]

Originally Posted by shermanator

I, for one, am perfectly fine with how Nenshi is being blunt about CalgaryNEXT. It's been dead in the public eye from day 1, and I think the majority of the public recognizes the Flames don't have much leverage in this project outside of an appeal to emotion. Good for him for calling the project what it is.

There are far more important uses of public money, for example, building that pesky Green Line.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by dre

We spent half a million on something dumb so lets spend a billion so the Flames can have more luxury suites?

You've swayed me.

[dre]

Originally Posted by nik-

We spent half a million on something dumb so lets spend a billion so the Flames can have more luxury suites?

You've swayed me.

Geez.....Not here to sway you.

[CaptainCrunch]

Your right Shermanator they don't have much leverage with the city in terms of getting the money.

The only leverage that they really have is relocation, that's it, its that simple.

Lets be utterly honest here, are two major league sports facilities are now probably at the bottom of their respective leagues. The Dome is old, the equipment in it isn't very good, there is no more revenue expansion capabilities. In the next few years it will barely be considered an NHL quality arena.

McMahon Stadium is pretty much the worst building in the CFL,

The Dome is a terrible concert facility its regularly skipped over for really good acts and we get the B and C acts for example.

Like I said if the city decides to dig their heels in on any kind of incentives to the Flames who are likely going to have to put up a lot of money for an arena themselves then why would they do it here?

There are likely better places to do it, that will give incentives.

Now frankly I agree with Locke, the Flames did a pretty lousy job in terms of the CalgaryNext presentation. But if the door is truly slammed now in terms of the city and the Flames then the Flames might as well start exploring options where they study private funding versus what cities out there would take an NHL team on and how much to they want them, so we can get on with the job of getting an AHL team.

The Stamps won't leave, but the Stadium is embarrassing.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

LOL - hey I actually really like that!

Next CBA - no longer a 50/50 split, but 48/48, with the remaining 4% going towards a 32 year cycle where every franchise gets the money to build their own facility (obviously adjusting that number to reflect what it would really cost - I've done no math on this before).

What do you think the players will say?

This is what effectively happens with the ticket taxes that are put in place.