[News] Bouma, Byron, and Jooris and 20 other players file for Salary Arbitration

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

A few thoughts:

1. There is way too much concern about alienating Lance Bouma going on around here. It might not seem like it as I say what I'm about to say, but I really appreciate Lance Bouma, and I thinks he's valuable. But we are talking about Lance Bouma here. Way too much concern about not upsetting and locking up an asset that if he becomes such a key member of our young core moving forward, I'd wager to say the Flames will not be achieving the success many of us hope. He's not a core player, and if he becomes one, we are in trouble.

2. I feel like some of the comments that point to concern with alienating or hurting his feelings, not value him, etc... actually disrespect Bouma's intelligence. I don't doubt there is currently a disconnect on value right now between him and the team (doesn't mean it's a sour disconnect), but do we really think that Bouma doesn't get it? Do we really think he doesn't understand that he's had to claw his way into the NHL doing dirty work and showing heart, and up until last season, including all of his seasons in other leagues and juniors that he's never before shown a flair for offence? Do we really believe that while I'm sure he's feeling the need to take advantage of that, that he doesn't also get why the Flames might be not so sure on how much that's worth at this point. I'm sure he gets it on some level, which has to be helping this not turn sour.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Love Bouma as much as the next guy, but in the big picture he's a 4th liner. You cannot invest a lot of money in guys that are going to play on your 4th line. You do so, you screw up your salary structure. The Flames have plenty of guys that can replace Bouma, so if ends up with a big payday he's likely trade bait. the rumor of Bouma being offered around in trade was poo-pooed by most on this site, but it made sense from the perspective of him pricing himself off the team. Bouma may see himself get a big contract, but may end up on a team other than the Flames, and one with less future. And that will be fine for the Flames. That will make room for Arnold or Agostino or Hathaway, and save the team a million dollars or more. It would be nice if it didn't come to that, but it looks like this is the way it is going to play out for Mr. Bouma and the hockey team.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Parallex

... he's going to be getting at least a 100% raise. I wish my bosses doubted me enough to give me a 100% raise.

and you would be 5 years (10 at most) away from forced retirement.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by New Era

Love Bouma as much as the next guy, but in the big picture he's a 4th liner. You cannot invest a lot of money in guys that are going to play on your 4th line. You do so, you screw up your salary structure. The Flames have plenty of guys that can replace Bouma, so if ends up with a big payday he's likely trade bait. the rumor of Bouma being offered around in trade was poo-pooed by most on this site, but it made sense from the perspective of him pricing himself off the team. Bouma may see himself get a big contract, but may end up on a team other than the Flames, and one with less future. And that will be fine for the Flames. That will make room for Arnold or Agostino or Hathaway, and save the team a million dollars or more. It would be nice if it didn't come to that, but it looks like this is the way it is going to play out for Mr. Bouma and the hockey team.

I would agree with this, if he was in fact a 4th liner. I think he's an excellent 3rd line player.

[saillias]

This is going to take the full 48 hours, isn't it.

C'mon arbitrator it isn't that hard to throw some darts at the choices between 1.5 and 2.5.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Bingo was arguing for keeping the price down on Bouma.... interchangeable bargain/value parts

Not true.

I was arguing that Bouma is unlikely to hit 16 goals again, he's not that type of player. He'll likely be a fourth line guy (8 minutes) that kills penalties (+5 minutes) and not a true top 9.

I love the guy as a 9th or 10th forward though and would love to keep him. Therefore I'm not going to use interchangeable or bargain/value parts to describe him.

His ascent to almost 20 goal scorer seems fishy and if I'm the Flames I present that case in my best "non-Risebrough / non-Milbury degrading the player" angle.

He's valuable, you want him in Calgary, but he's not a top six or top eight forward in my mind.

Frolik with a longer history and great possession stats is. He's scored 15+ four times, when Bouma does that he'll get paid too.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by heep223

I would agree with this, if he was in fact a 4th liner. I think he's an excellent 3rd line player.

In recent years the player that most resembles Bouma from last year is Bickell and Bouma plays much tougher minutes. I think anyone would be happy with Bickell at 2M a year.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by heep223

I would agree with this, if he was in fact a 4th liner. I think he's an excellent 3rd line player.

To believe that you have to accept that last season was not a fluke and his pervious years in hockey were not his actual talent level. I tend to ignore outliers and focus on sustainable trends. For Lance Bouma last season was a massive outlier in his hockey career. It is very unlikely he will ever see that performance repeat. It would be awesome if he did, but it is unlikely. He is still an amazing performer given his skill set, but that pure skill set makes him a 4th liner. I mean, what is it that makes him so good in your eyes? What makes him excel? He's not a great skater. He's not a good passer. He doesn't have a good shot. The one thing he does very well is get in the way of the puck. He is fearless and is willing to sacrifice his body. i don't see that being good enough to make a guy a 3rd liner or earn a big salary. I love his attitude and willingness to give his all, but the Flames have better talent coming up that could do the same for less money. I don't see him having the skill to be a 3rd liner on this team for much longer. He'll settle out on that 4th line soon enough, and you can't pay a 4th liner that much money without hurting you elsewhere.

[thymebalm]

So, what am I missing?

The arbitrator gives a salary, they have 48 hours to accept it or negotiate a longer term?

I thought we'd know about Bouma by today.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

and you would be 5 years (10 at most) away from forced retirement.

Which I'd have some sympathy for... except that he'll likely be making at least 20 times what I make in that same period and if he still wants to work afterwards he'll likely still have the ability to if he wants. I'm not going to shed any tears if some rich guy feels bad because his bosses aren't making him even more rich.

The Flames are going to give Lance Bouma a 100% raise (for an already high paying job) at minimum. He is going to be a millionaire... If he's going to pout and be all sadfaced mopey because they aren't making him a multi-millionaire after one single season of hinting that he's more then a fourth line guy... well in that case *rubs thumb and pointer finger together* here Lance, this is the worlds smallest violin playing just for you. Seriously, I think any hand-wringing about Lance Bouma being a delicate snowflake with respect to his feeling being hurt at "only" getting a 100% (raise instead of a 350% raise) is kind of silly.

Fortunately, I think Bouma will actually be a professional about it and take his arbitration award, go out and play hockey as best he can, and if he replicates or improves upon his past year sign for even more money again next year and if he falls back then he can be thankful that his Q.O. is locked in for next year at more then it probably should be.

[Strange Brew]

I know how to settle this. Let's sign him to a one year contract in a year in which we have some cap space and see how he does. Maybe throw an extra $100K or two at him. We will have that much more information on which to base his next offer.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

So, what am I missing?

The arbitrator gives a salary, they have 48 hours to accept it or negotiate a longer term?

I thought we'd know about Bouma by today.

Both sides presented their cases yesterday. The arbitrator has up to 48 hours from the end of hearing to decide on a number based on the evidence presented yesterday.

Both sides can still negotiate a deal until the arbitrator announces his/her decision.

Once the arbitrator announces the decision, that is the contract the Flames will have Bouma signed for.


So the latest we will hear about this Bouma's contract is tomorrow. News can come out from now until that point though.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

So, what am I missing?

The arbitrator gives a salary, they have 48 hours to accept it or negotiate a longer term?

I thought we'd know about Bouma by today.

They have 48 hours to issue their decision as well. We might not know anything until tomorrow.

[Otto-matic]

This is how I would like to imagine it'll happen,

Treliving: “You all know exactly who I am. Say my name….I’m the GM. I’m the man who stole Dougie Hamilton. Now say my name.”
Arbitrator: “Treliving.”
Treliving: “You’re goddamn right.”
Arbitrator: "Lance you've been awarded 1.5..."

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Bouma for 2 million on a 3-4 year deal is a steal.

In what league is $8 million for Lance Bouma a steal? I would call that slightly overpaid.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by New Era

To believe that you have to accept that last season was not a fluke and his pervious years in hockey were not his actual talent level. I tend to ignore outliers and focus on sustainable trends. For Lance Bouma last season was a massive outlier in his hockey career. It is very unlikely he will ever see that performance repeat. It would be awesome if he did, but it is unlikely. He is still an amazing performer given his skill set, but that pure skill set makes him a 4th liner. I mean, what is it that makes him so good in your eyes? What makes him excel? He's not a great skater. He's not a good passer. He doesn't have a good shot. The one thing he does very well is get in the way of the puck. He is fearless and is willing to sacrifice his body. i don't see that being good enough to make a guy a 3rd liner or earn a big salary. I love his attitude and willingness to give his all, but the Flames have better talent coming up that could do the same for less money. I don't see him having the skill to be a 3rd liner on this team for much longer. He'll settle out on that 4th line soon enough, and you can't pay a 4th liner that much money without hurting you elsewhere.

No, I agree with you that he's more likely to regress on his point production than not and his goal production was likely an outlier. I just straight up disagree on your assessment of his skating and his shot, which I think are both well above average for a 3rd liner. Plus he's physical, he's good on the PK, he can take faceoffs, he's fearless, he's tough and he'll fight. Again though I reiterate his skating which we'll probably just disagree on, he's fast and he can keep up with the tempo that Hartley likes which is tough to find in a 3rd liner. And...he's still developing. I don't think he's "so good" and he obviously isn't a skill guy, but he's a great 3rd liner on any team and paying him $2M-$2.5M is the market. I don't see this as "earning a big salary".

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

In what league is $8 million for Lance Bouma a steal? I would call that slightly overpaid.

If that was his salary in Rubles in the KHL, it's probably a pretty good deal.

[JohnnyTitan]

I saw someone else run the numbers like this the other day:

The NHL Salary Cap is $71.4M.

Divided by an NHL team, that makes the average salary really close to $3M per.

Obviously, each team needs to pay some players more and some players less. Getting Lance signed for ~$1M below that average for the next few years seems to add-up in my mind.

In our near-term (3-year) pipeline it seems like we will have sub-$2M contracts for Bouma, Bennett, Poirier, Ferland, Jooris, Shore, Granlund, Colborne and a couple of Arnold / Hathaway / other. Money will come off the books for Jones, Raymond, Stajan (maybe Hudler?)

Lance @ $2M works for me.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Both sides presented their cases yesterday. The arbitrator has up to 48 hours from the end of hearing to decide on a number based on the evidence presented yesterday.

Both sides can still negotiate a deal until the arbitrator announces his/her decision.

Once the arbitrator announces the decision, that is the contract the Flames will have Bouma signed for.


So the latest we will hear about this Bouma's contract is tomorrow. News can come out from now until that point though.

Thanks as always.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I know how to settle this. Let's sign him to a one year contract in a year in which we have some cap space and see how he does. Maybe throw an extra $100K or two at him. We will have that much more information on which to base his next offer.

If we throw extra money at him on a 1 year it's that much more that we need to qualify him for next year.