[Rumour] Giordano Extension. Kypreos: Starting point is $72 million over 8 years

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by kehatch

You need to rewind from 2020. There is one D in the entire NHL making 8 million or more per season, and only 3 making that in pure salary next season. So no, a top 10 D man isn't worth 8 or 9 million.

I love Giordano. But he will be 33 when the contract starts. He has been elite for just two seasons in his career, and he was injured for around 20 games in each of those seasons.

Your logic isn't logical. Sekera getting 5.5 x 6 doesn't equal a top 10 D deserving 8 or 9 million. In fact, if this off season taught us anything is that with the cap not climbing teams aren't willing to hand out crazy contracts. I doubt Giordano would get 8 million even on the open market at this point.

You completely missed the context of the conversation that my post was part of. Completely. It was a reference to 'current value'.

The really amazing thing is that 3 people actually thanked your post, despite that fact.

(by the way, I agree with your point, being that Giordano should not get $8M on any kind of long term deal).

But to my point (which you quoted)... if Giordano signed a two-year deal today, what do you think the AAV would be?

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Salary can't vary more than 35% in consecutive years and lowest year cannot be less than 50% of the highest year.

So how about something like 9 / 9 / 7 / 5 / 4.5 / 4.5. Paid like a Norris candidate for the first 2 years, still higher salary than Hamilton and Brodie in year 3, and then in the last 3 years he'll be a 36/37/38 year old but still getting paid a very reasonable amount. 39 million over 6 years with an AAV of 6.5. Gives him term and paid handsomely as a 33, 34, and 35 year old. Then he can take a shorter deal(s) as a captain/mentor role a la Yzerman in his final years. Unreasonable?

[Jason14h]

So how about something like 9 / 9 / 7 / 5 / 4.5 / 4.5.

I think add 1 mil per year and thats where the Flames will end, maybe a slight variation, with the Flames having the option of a final year (7) to bring the cap hit down

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

lol

he would return substantially more than that

try a 1st, a player, and a blue chip prospect

What precedent are you using for this valuation? Because I think it's way off.

[dying4acup]

Gio has had som brutal injuries (torn tendon, torn muscle, fractured bone), but I think it's been more bad luck, than injury prone.

I would also say that Gio, being a late bloomer, has not played a tonne of pro or NHL games for his age.

In addition, defenseman who think the game well, with good hockey sense, stay in shape and don't play a greuling game usually have a later, longer prime, and can last a lot longer in the game.

I'm not so concerned about Gio's game falling off, but I wouldn't give him 8x9 either.

The Flames have organized a succession plan. Hopefully it doesn't start this summer. Mr Winter is negotiating to a deadline a year away, but realistically, both Gio and the Flames want a deal done by training camp. There is no worry about offer sheets.

The Flames don't want the distraction of this contract expiring after the season, when they can do special things this year. Gio doesn't want to go into the season knowing that one dirty hit, or one freak injury will cost him 40M (estimate) in earnings.

This deal gets done fairly in the next 3-4 weeks.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

So how about something like 9 / 9 / 7 / 5 / 4.5 / 4.5. Paid like a Norris candidate for the first 2 years, still higher salary than Hamilton and Brodie in year 3, and then in the last 3 years he'll be a 36/37/38 year old but still getting paid a very reasonable amount. 39 million over 6 years with an AAV of 6.5. Gives him term and paid handsomely as a 33, 34, and 35 year old. Then he can take a shorter deal(s) as a captain/mentor role a la Yzerman in his final years. Unreasonable?

Not bad, but let me put it this way:
Do you want to sign a contract right now that starts at 2019 and gives a 36-year old player three more years at 6.5M cap hit?

Long deals on aging players are huge risks.

The salary structure doesn't much matter for the Flames, as the team is not short on cash. What matters is the cap hit.

Really the only argument to be made for those long contracts is that you're paying for the chance of a cup. If Boston GM would be told when signing that Chara contract that they'll win 1 cup, but the contract will be a bad one in the end, does he take it? Probably yes.

[Imported_Aussie]

I would not want to go beyond 5 years. Ideally 4 years, but a 5th year might make sense to lower the hit. 5 year deal would also take Giordano and Hamilton to same expiration date, by which time Giordano is retiring/getting a 1 year deal at lower money and Hamilton is getting a raise. 6 years or more is dangerous in terms of re-signing the D corps. 4 years takes him to when Brodie's low price deal ends, 5 years to Hamilton's deal ending. That should be the window for all 3 on the back end: 4-5 years.

If Giordano wants 9M, pay him that for the years he will be most worth it - years 1-2 - the start the deal dropping
9M + 9M + 8M + 6.5M = 8.125M cap hit on 4 years
OR
9M + 9M + 8M + 6.5M + 5M = 7.5M cap hit on 5 years

The dollar figure is high, but there is no true comparable - Weber, Keith and Suter have mega-long deals that keep the cap hit down and he is not worth PK money long term, but in the short term at least, he has earned that right. And that is how Winter will negotiate

[Lanny_McDonald]

Mark Giordano has not hit the 65 games played mark in his last four seasons. If he believes he's a $9 million player, so be it. He can take a 22% haircut on that salary because he misses so many games. That makes him a $7 million player at the high end of his years, which is much more in-line with what his peers are being paid and his market value. Face it. Even if Giordano makes it to free agency, there is no one in this planet that is going to drop that much cash on a guy that is 33 and a history of injuries. I love Mark Giordano, but come on, consider what he is going to provide in the future. He's not getting any younger and it is becoming a young man's game. I hope Treliving doesn't Chiarelli us with a Chara contract.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

If the Flames don't want to give term (More then 4 years) they will be paying 8.5-9 mil or Gio will hit the market and watch another team probably pay more in FA.

I have my doubts about that. How many contenders will have $7mil plus laying around to sign a 30-something defenceman? Chicago? Nope. L.A.? Nope. Anaheim? Budget team. Tampa is going to have a tough time must keeping their core together.

Many of the non-contenders are rebuilding. After this contract expires, Gio will be 33. What rebuilding team is going to drop a huge contract on a 33-year-old? None.

So we're left with teams with lots of cap space ready to make an immediate jump in the standings. So no teams with internal budgets. Colorado? They've let great #2 centres go in successive years because they didn't want to pay them. Maybe Dallas? Columbus? The market for Gio will be very small.

Gio is in an awkward position. He has been underpaid for a few years now, and is trying to recoup that by signing the biggest contract of his life in his 30s. There may be a case for the Flames paying him for services rendered in the past. But that's not the case for other teams, who owe Giordano nothing. He's also looking at term - probably six years. GMs are increasingly wary of those long-term contracts, and typically only sign them for players who are in their prime, knowing that overpayment late in the contract is the price of keeping a player in his prime. It's hard to argue Gio has much of his prime left.

I think he has less leverage than a lot of people think (especially after the Hamilton deal). The crux of the matter is term. If Gio is determined to get 5+ years at 7mil per, there may not be a place for him in Calgary, and he may well be disappointed when he does end up a UFA. I wouldn't be shocked if the Flames dealt him, and then the contract he signed as a UFA ended up less than what the Flames were willing to pay him.

[zoom]

Can the Flames allow his agent to discuss extensions with other teams? Meaning, if extension talks stall/go nowhere, can they let Gio's camp discuss extensions (while he is under contract) for purposes of 'testing the waters' and working a trade?

Highly doubt this happens, but was wondering if this was possible (it is in the NFL).

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by zoom

Can the Flames allow his agent to discuss extensions with other teams? Meaning, if extension talks stall/go nowhere, can they let Gio's camp discuss extensions (while he is under contract) for purposes of 'testing the waters' and working a trade?

Highly doubt this happens, but was wondering if this was possible (it is in the NFL).

Yes

[tvp2003]

If this team wins the Stanley Cup in the next five years, Mark Giordano will be the one receiving it from Bettman. Until then, Gio will receive a contract befitting his Norris calibre play and his contributions on the ice, in the locker room, and within the community. Treliving will get it done.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

If this team wins the Stanley Cup in the next five years, Mark Giordano will be the one receiving it from Bettman. Until then, Gio will receive a contract befitting his Norris calibre play and his contributions on the ice, in the locker room, and within the community. Treliving will get it done.

If Treliving writes a big check for Gio based on those factors he's not nearly the GM I thought he was. With the injuries, his age, and Hamilton and Brodie. Treliving should be able to cut the knees out of Gio's agent.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by New Era

Mark Giordano has not hit the 65 games played mark in his last four seasons. If he believes he's a $9 million player, so be it. He can take a 22% haircut on that salary because he misses so many games. That makes him a $7 million player at the high end of his years, which is much more in-line with what his peers are being paid and his market value. Face it. Even if Giordano makes it to free agency, there is no one in this planet that is going to drop that much cash on a guy that is 33 and a history of injuries. I love Mark Giordano, but come on, consider what he is going to provide in the future. He's not getting any younger and it is becoming a young man's game. I hope Treliving doesn't Chiarelli us with a Chara contract.

I'm all for a tough negotiation and getting Gio signed at a decent price (I think this is the best situation for him in the league, so he's gonna sign).

But dinging Gio for being injured is, in essence, penalizing him for playing hard. Example: the injury this year was Gio working hard to clear the puck in the last minute and getting his arm caught up in a freak play. Should he not try so hard next time so as to ensure he doesn't get injured?

BTW, it was pretty hard to make 65 games in 12-13.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Salary can't vary more than 35% in consecutive years and lowest year cannot be less than 50% of the highest year.

So would something like this work? The first couple of years are high since we have room as we don't have to pay the kids yet. Year 4/5 are at the $5.5 million mark.

Year 1: $11M
Year 2: $9.5M
Year 3: $8.0M
Year 4: $5.5M
Year 5: $5.5M

Average $7.9M/year.

[kehatch]

Sorry if it has already been talked about. But if we aren't able to sign him to a contract that works (though I think we will) what about something involving Giordano and Shattenkirk? The Blues want to win a cup now and are shaking up their core to do that. It could be a better fit for the Flames that still have a long term focus.

[PrettyBoyFlizzy]

He wants 8 years is he going to play until he is 41? I would hope we are not signing a injury prone defender to that type of deal.

I think he has to realize this is a special group and if he wants to be a part of that he will have to accept a shorter term deal, and I know Brad and Brian probably feel the same way. I think 4/28 is a very fair deal it takes him to 37 and pays him 28 million over 4 years. If he insists on getting a contract 8 years in length that pays 9 million then we should trade him asap.

[LIP MAN]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

If this team wins the Stanley Cup in the next five years, Mark Giordano will be the one receiving it from Bettman. Until then, Gio will receive a contract befitting his Norris calibre play and his contributions on the ice, in the locker room, and within the community. Treliving will get it done.

Sound thinking. This teams identity has been impacted by Gio (work ethic, commitment to team play, fitness) in every sense of the word.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by PrettyBoyFlizzy

He wants 8 years is he going to play until he is 41? I would hope we are not signing a injury prone defender to that type of deal.

I think he has to realize this is a special group and if he wants to be a part of that he will have to accept a shorter term deal, and I know Brad and Brian probably feel the same way. I think 4/28 is a very fair deal it takes him to 37 and pays him 28 million over 4 years. If he insists on getting a contract 8 years in length that pays 9 million then we should trade him asap.

8/8/6/6/5/5/4/4

5.75 AAV, I could live with that

If he wants 8 years, no way should it be over 6 Million cap hit. He should still be able to play 3rd pairing at the end point. No different than David Jones playing on our 3rd and 4th line now.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by DJones

If Treliving writes a big check for Gio based on those factors he's not nearly the GM I thought he was. With the injuries, his age, and Hamilton and Brodie. Treliving should be able to cut the knees out of Gio's agent.

Nothing Treliving has done this offseason suggests he is going to write a big check for anyone. However, a lot of posters are really undervaluing what he brings as a Captain and leader of this team. That's not something you can easily replace, especially the calibre of what Gio brings. It's also a quality that will endure over time, even if his numbers start to decline with age.

People might think, "Flames made the playoffs and beat Vancouver with Gio on the sidelines". This is true of course, but you could also argue "Gio lead his team into the playoffs and into the second round, and he didn't even have to be in the ice to do it".

Always earned, never given. Gio's earned it, and won't stop earning it so long as he is physically able. That's a guy you want on your team, leading your team.