Israel declares war on Hamas

[_Q_]

Hamas agrees to hostage deal in the last few hours

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/...r-a-gaza-truce

Hamas’s peace plan, which it calls “reasonable and realistic” has been submitted in response to proposals sent last week by Qatari and Egyptian mediators who have been holding negotiations with Israel and the US in a high-level diplomatic push to end the war.

In its plan, Hamas has suggested a three-stage truce process that would see hostages and prisoners released on both sides. Each stage would last for 45 days, according to the plan.

[Doctorfever]

Sounds like Hamas is running short on fighters. Need some released from prision.

Probably also running low on ammunition.


If they are finally willing to release some hostages, the pressure Israel is putting on the terrorist organization must be working.

[CaptainCrunch]

While there are certainly some reasonable pieces to this and I think its worth a counter proposal Israel.


I doubt Israel is going to be all that interested in any agreement that doesn't find a way to remove the threat of Hamas and more terrorist attacks.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

1. Genocide requires intent to destroy a group.
2. Hamas uses human shields
3. Israel military intelligence will show their evidence in decision making on strikes.
4. Israel will show what they HAVE been doing to minimize casualties.
5. Comparison to global conflicts happening worldwide that get nowhere near this attention.

1.Boat loads of evidence of that. Also POST ICJ ruling that had a little conference on the settlement of Gaza.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1735808203894800636

2. Possibly. Probably. But doesn't explain indiscriminate dropping of large bombs.
3. Lol. Ok. Like what. Just drop the biggest bombs on densely populated areas?
4. Like instructing soldiers to shoot anyone carrying a white flag? Because they're isolated incidents.
5. The Nage Waza defence. Ruling that we're committing genocide when others have done as bad is antisemitism.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Sounds like Hamas is running short on fighters. Need some released from prision.

Probably also running low on ammunition.


If they are finally willing to release some hostages, the pressure Israel is putting on the terrorist organization must be working.

Cool man, how many more innocents should be killed and de-homed for Israel to achieve their goals? Is 10 OK? Ya? 100? 1000?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I doubt Israel is going to be all that interested in any agreement that doesn't find a way to remove the threat of Hamas and more terrorist attacks.

lol, you can't remove the threat. In fact, since October 7, Israel has made their long-term safety and security much more tenuous. This has to be one of the greatest terrorist-creating campaigns of all time.

Bombing an entire region and mascaraing its people has a tendency to create generational hate, which will lead to more terrorism.

There isn't a Palestinian alive that will forgive Israel for this.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Cool man, how many more innocents should be killed and de-homed for Israel to achieve their goals? Is 10 OK? Ya? 100? 1000?

I would hope 0, but we all agree Hamas uses civilians as human shields. So that is not possible.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Sounds like Hamas is running short on fighters. Need some released from prision.

Probably also running low on ammunition.


If they are finally willing to release some hostages, the pressure Israel is putting on the terrorist organization must be working.

Read the article.

Hamas' proposal ultimately involves the ending of the war, lifting the siege, release of prisoners, bringing in 260,000 units of temporary housing, the delivery of 500 aid trucks, and rebuilding Gaza.

I think this is a lot more sophisticated than "Hamas is losing, they need more bullets."

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Read the article.

Hamas' proposal ultimately involves the ending of the war, lifting the siege, release of prisoners, bringing in 260,000 units of temporary housing, the delivery of 500 aid trucks, and rebuilding Gaza.

I think this is a lot more sophisticated than "Hamas is losing, they need more bullets."

Riiiight. And I’ve got some land to sell you. Oceanfront. In Arizona.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I would hope 0, but we all agree Hamas uses civilians as human shields. So that is not possible.

I think Israel uses a fairly liberal definition of what a terrorist and what a human shield is. As in, you are a journalist that documents war crimes, you're therfore Hamas and your entire building should be leveled while you sleep. All the occupants are human shields.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Riiiight. And I’ve got some land to sell you. Oceanfront. In Arizona.

Dude, the article is written in plain English. It's no higher than grade 10 level English.

If it's too difficult for you, DM me and I can break it down.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I would hope 0, but we all agree Hamas uses civilians as human shields. So that is not possible.

It IS possible. Israel can stop killing them.

This thread is just another reminder about how morally destitute people are, how ####ed humanity has become, and how their isn't much hope, because people on a message board can't even understand that it is NOT OK to kill people, no matter what you tell yourself to justify it. Here, in a phrase you might understand. THOU SHALL NOT KILL. Not thou shall not kill unless someone kills you first, then go kill everyone in the way.

But ya, I get it. Y'all are a bunch of godamned hypocrites unless it serves your ####ing purpose. Monsters.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Sliver

lol, you can't remove the threat. In fact, since October 7, Israel has made their long-term safety and security much more tenuous. This has to be one of the greatest terrorist-creating campaigns of all time.

Bombing an entire region and mascaraing its people has a tendency to create generational hate, which will lead to more terrorism.

There isn't a Palestinian alive that will forgive Israel for this.

Look, I get that Silver, but a ceasefire is going to be worthless without a way to guarantee security for Israel. We saw what happened in the last ceasefire that was broken, and I doubt that Israel is going to show any tolerance the next time a ceasefire is broken.


Frankly we're beyond the point of any kind of self managed ceasfire between Israel and Hamas, its simply not going to work, I expect that rockets will be flying in a month if Hamas is given a chance to rearm, re-entrench and re-recruit.


Unless there is a peace enforcement provision with teeth placed on both sides we're going to face perpetual war followed by short ceasefires and then war for eternity.


Its unacceptable to me for Israel to re-occupy Gaza, its unacceptable to me that Hamas is allowed to remain in government in Gaza. But those provisions really can't be placed in a ceasefire, that truce level stuff.



But maybe its time for a NATO observer brigade with teeth that can keep Israel and Hamas throroughly cowed.


Just my 2 cents.

[afc wimbledon]

The problem for creating peace in the region is that historically it hasn't mattered what Israel has done, it's existence has been enough to create ongoing violence against it, if you are an Israeli right now you are thinking the worst most brutal attack against Israeli citizens, Jews in the world in general since the second world war came after a period of sustained 20 year non intervention when Israel pulled all settlers out of Gaza, didnt interfere with the civilian administration and allowed vast numbers of Gazans to cross the border to work in Israel, all of the things that we as outsiders claim Israel should do to bring peace they pretty much did in Gaza and all it got them was raped and murdered citizens by the thousands.

If you are an Israeli voter the obvious inference from Oct 7th is peace is impossible and so the only path to security is through brutality and ethnic cleansing, at that point even if you dont want war, even if you want a peaceful solution you are going to think 'well I don't want my kids killed so I guess we have to kill all the other guys instead'

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The problem for creating peace in the region is that historically it hasn't mattered what Israel has done, it's existence has been enough to create ongoing violence against it, if you are an Israeli right now you are thinking the worst most brutal attack against Israeli citizens, Jews in the world in general since the second world war came after a period of sustained 20 year non intervention when Israel pulled all settlers out of Gaza, didnt interfere with the civilian administration and allowed vast numbers of Gazans to cross the border to work in Israel, all of the things that we as outsiders claim Israel should do to bring peace they pretty much did in Gaza and all it got them was raped and murdered citizens by the thousands.

If you are an Israeli voter the obvious inference from Oct 7th is peace is impossible and so the only path to security is through brutality and ethnic cleansing, at that point even if you dont want war, even if you want a peaceful solution you are going to think 'well I don't want my kids killed so I guess we have to kill all the other guys instead'

I do agree with this, there is a bit of a one sided argument that is happening, which is the ceasefire from the Gaza perspective, and I do agree that the killing has to stop.



However any ceasefire, any truce any piece has to take into account the Israeli perspective. I don't think anyone will disagree that the events of Oct 7th were horrifying examples of terrorism and sadism. I would expect that given history of attacks even leading up to Oct 7th couldn't possibly have the same effect on the Israeli population that Oct 7th had, and there's very little sympathy for Gaza at the moment.



That's why any self managed ceasefire is going to fail, because Hamas is a group of politically saavy and dedicated psychopaths.



Any ceasefire agreement has to lead to security understandings on both sides, and a hard separation on both sides, especially if the hardcore radical elements in the Israeli and Hammas groups are allowed to self manage it.


On top of that, lets say that an observer group or peace enforcement element was put into place to punitively punish attacks.



Israel would never accept it being made up of middle eastern nations.



Hamas would never accept a Nato lead initiative.


Israel would never accept a UN lead initiative.

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I said at the begining of this thread my SIL is Jewish, large parts of her family live in Isreal. I love her and I understand her frustration and anxiety.

That said, years ago. Maybe a 6 years, starting when she first visited Isreal, she would start ranting about how Palestinians were Rats suitable only for slaughter. How Arabs were Evil Rats. When she talks about them I can see the hate cloud her eyes. This is several years ago.


This is why I find it so easy to believe that Isreal is prepared to commit genocide. This kind of hate has been bubbling for a long time. it isn't 1933, its 1940.

As much as posters have mentioned Palestinians have been indoctrinated by Hamas, its not a far stretch to say that Jewish people are also indoctrinated to hate.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It IS possible. Israel can stop killing them.

This thread is just another reminder about how morally destitute people are, how ####ed humanity has become, and how their isn't much hope, because people on a message board can't even understand that it is NOT OK to kill people, no matter what you tell yourself to justify it. Here, in a phrase you might understand. THOU SHALL NOT KILL. Not thou shall not kill unless someone kills you first, then go kill everyone in the way.

But ya, I get it. Y'all are a bunch of godamned hypocrites unless it serves your ####ing purpose. Monsters.

It’s hypocritical to start a war, then cry when you get attacked.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

It’s hypocritical to start a war, then cry when you get attacked.

Did 1.5 million people start a war? Or was it a terrorist organization deemed as such by many countries in the world?

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I said at the begining of this thread my SIL is Jewish, large parts of her family live in Isreal. I love her and I understand her frustration and anxiety.

That said, years ago. Maybe a 6 years, starting when she first visited Isreal, she would start ranting about how Palestinians were Rats suitable only for slaughter. How Arabs were Evil Rats. When she talks about them I can see the hate cloud her eyes. This is several years ago.


This is why I find it so easy to believe that Isreal is prepared to commit genocide. This kind of hate has been bubbling for a long time. it isn't 1933, its 1940.

Oh wow, you met a jew you didn't like, thus you don't like any of them. There is a name for that.

The Palestinians have very publicly, along with other nations, declared their desire to kill all Jews. Then they followed with rockets launches for twenty years, then absolute murder and other disgusting acts against Jews.

And your takeaway was Jews are bad? I don't wish genocide, nor do any of my cousins. However, they want to be safe, and their government is going about doing that.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Provoked?

In my world there's nothing could provoke me to raping and murdering women and children.

That's plain savagery... period.

All I'm saying is, if Israel's goal has always been to live in peace and harmony next to the Palestinians and not get attacked, their constant provocations, land grabs, and Apartheid-esque policies have been a rather odd strategy toward achieving that goal, don't you think?

Hamas' actions were pure savagery, yes. But so is holding the Palestinian people responsible for the actions of Hamas. So is flippantly dismissing the deaths of thousands of children as collateral damage.