Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by rotten42

I would guess he is probably doing a bit better than you.

Well... that's difficult to say. I mean unless your definition of "better" is strictly limited to net financial worth. If that's the case then Murray Edwards is doing better then the vast vast vast Vast VAST majority of the human race (I mean I'm assuming that Eric Vail isn't Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos). But there are probably many other aspects of life where many folk are doing "better" then Murray Edwards.

Either way it is kind of silly to call him a perennial loser.

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Well... that's difficult to say. I mean unless your definition of "better" is strictly limited to net financial worth. If that's the case then Murray Edwards is doing better then the vast vast vast Vast VAST majority of the human race (I mean I'm assuming that Eric Vail isn't Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos). But there are probably many other aspects of life where many folk are doing "better" then Murray Edwards.

Either way it is kind of silly to call him a perennial loser.

As a Flames owner he is. His team can't get into the top third of the NHL year after year, and he can't get even close to getting an arena done.

Seems like a lot of failure to me. What are his great successes as a Flames owner? I guess when it comes to making money, he's done pretty well - even as a Flames owner.

I guess if money making ability is what made a hockey owner great, then the Leaf and Rangers would be the biggest winners for the past several decades.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

As a Flames owner he is. His team can't get into the top third of the NHL year after year, and he can't get even close to getting an arena done.

Seems like a lot of failure to me. What are his great successes as a Flames owner? I guess when it comes to making money, he's done pretty well - even as a Flames owner.

How is Murray Edwards responsible for the performance of the team on the ice? He pays their salaries, but he doesn't coach the players, teach them strategy, train them in the off-season or manage the personnel of the team. You can call him a 'failure', but aside from funding the operation of the franchise (which is a necessary requirement), he is not responsible for the on-ice product. You can blame Gulutzan, the coaching staff and the GM for that.

Would you prefer that Edwards is more hands-on with the on-ice product? Would you rather we have a Eugene Melnyk? I definitely wouldn't.

[Badgers Nose]

Edwards is too busy to tend to this tire fire. He probably keeps tabs on the P&L and a few other things.

If he can can a free arena, great. He’d probably pay attention for a while if that was the case.

As long as they don’t lose (too much) money KK and others are safe.

He should sell the Flames now and buy a BPL team.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Muta

How is Murray Edwards responsible for the performance of the team on the ice? He pays their salaries, but he doesn't coach the players, teach them strategy, train them in the off-season or manage the personnel of the team. You can call him a 'failure', but aside from funding the operation of the franchise (which is a necessary requirement), he is not responsible for the on-ice product. You can blame Gulutzan, the coaching staff and the GM for that.

That's certainly not a given, considering the fact Ken King was probably hands-on with Hockey Ops and was far more involved than he ever should have been. If King was involved to any degree, Edwards was pulling the strings in the background.

Would you prefer that Edwards is more hands-on with the on-ice product? Would you rather we have a Eugene Melnyk? I definitely wouldn't.

The Senators have had more success on the ice (playoff round wins) since Melnyk bought the team than the Flames have over the same time period. Whatever Edwards is doing or not doing, it doesn't appear to be working very well.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

He should sell the Flames now and buy a BPL team.

I’d rather see Edwards milk a BPL team for all its worth with the fans hating him for being content with bottom third finishes because it isn’t worth the cost to compete at the top, only finding the happy medium of spending as little as possible to stay in the league to earn the big PL media dollars.

Then he can use that money over here.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

If Edwards is a perennial loser then tattoo a big "L" on my forehead as I want in that club.

I thought you were its President.


Sorry.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Muta

Would you prefer that Edwards is more hands-on with the on-ice product? Would you rather we have a Eugene Melnyk? I definitely wouldn't.

I doubt Edwards is involved in the nitty-gritty, but I suspect he has some say in the overall direction of the team. Ken King certainly did for a long time, and he's the underling of the owners.

And back when Treliving was signing his contract last year, Elliote Friedman commented that one of the things he heard Treliving wanted was assurances that there wouldn't be meddling from above, something that (Friedman said) was rumoured to be an issue with the Flames organization.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Muta

How is Murray Edwards responsible for the performance of the team on the ice? He pays their salaries, but he doesn't coach the players, teach them strategy, train them in the off-season or manage the personnel of the team. You can call him a 'failure', but aside from funding the operation of the franchise (which is a necessary requirement), he is not responsible for the on-ice product. You can blame Gulutzan, the coaching staff and the GM for that.

Would you prefer that Edwards is more hands-on with the on-ice product? Would you rather we have a Eugene Melnyk? I definitely wouldn't.

Whoa... that's a complete abdication of responsibility. Edwards keeps King around, King hires the people who assemble the mediocrity we see before us on a yearly basis. That's on him.

Honestly, I don't see why they keep King around. Can't put a good product out, can't close an arena deal, declining profitability by his own admission... if anyone needs to be relieved of his duties this off-season it's Ken King. Get rid of the rot at the top.

[Roughneck]

I seem to remember the owners “picking coaches” in the past but that’s about as much as I remember it being.

But as much as Treliving’s contract was a talking point for ‘meddling’ the whole Burke hire was supposedly about creating separation from the team and King who needed to focus more on the arena deal...what he actually did with that extra separation and free time is an excellent question given what we’ve seen.

So Ken, the only question that needs to be asked as a result of this whole saga is:

[GullFoss]

Maybe Ken King would have forced Tre to lottery protect the pick.

Didn't he effectively nix a deal a couple offseasons ago that effectively turned out to be fortuitous in the long run?

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Maybe Ken King would have forced Tre to lottery protect the pick.

Didn't he effectively nix a deal a couple offseasons ago that effectively turned out to be fortuitous in the long run?

Between the Phaneuf deal and the O’Reilly offersheet I don’t think there has been much mixing of anything worth bragging about in the organization.

[FireGilbert]

I just heard the story of how Ken King got suspended from the Willow Park Golf Club. What an ass hole and such a poor representative of the Flames.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

I just heard the story of how Ken King got suspended from the Willow Park Golf Club. What an ass hole and such a poor representative of the Flames.

Do tell. Or do I need to find out from buddy who plays there?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

I just heard the story of how Ken King got suspended from the Willow Park Golf Club. What an ass hole and such a poor representative of the Flames.

This is one of those things that you have to either share details or don't share anything. What happened?

[Eric Vail]

Since 1989, the Flames have only had one successful season - 2004 and you could argue a moderately successful season in 2014-15 where they exceeded expectations.

So, in nearly 30 years, 28 years of disappointment. There were many different presidents, GM, and coaches hired over that span of time who mostly failed to make the Flames a winner. That is on the ownership. A better owner finds the right people to run his business to make it successful. Edwards continues to be the CEO of a losing organization.

People talk about how the Flames have never paid the money necessary to get a proven coach. I have to believe that is an ownership issue, as the GMs have changed so many times and yet they continue to hire amateur coaches or guys whose NHL stock has fallen.

Whomever is ultimately in charge gets the credit or the blame.

[The Boy Wonder]

I just posted this in the PGT but it’s more relevant here:

ownership is the true issue with this organization.

Everything seems to be focused on profit first (which is fine, they are running a business) but the appetite for “short term financial pain” in the form of spending on competent scouting and above average coaching doesn’t seem to be there. The longer term gains you would see from his up front investment would be a sustained period of being better and increased revenues and profit.


It’s just really hard to see how it isn’t a culture problem starting at the very top of we have only advanced past the first round twice in the past 25 years...

That’s abysmal

And honestly you would think if ~50% of teams get into the playoffs each year and ~25% of teams win a round

Then the flames have only finished a season in he top 25% of teams twice in a quarter century

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

I thought you were its President.


Sorry.

Was that supposed to be funny or you seriously calling me the President of the Perennial Losers Club? I wouldn't say I've been a perennial loser as I've had a handful of good years over my lifetime.

[Jbo]

For all the talk about how bad we are historically, would be curious how we stack up with other teams over the same 25 year period. (Let’s say making the second round) would we be that low or comparable to lots of other teams?

Just looked up Nashville. Made playoffs 10 times, 3 first round wins, and last season made the final.

Better then us, but not as big a gap as I thought

[stang]

^^ Nashville has only been in the league for 19 years.