You Know What Really Grinds My Gears? Now with 3x more gears...

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by peter12

This is smart stuff. There’s no such thing as a career spent working at one place or doing one thing anymore. I usually spend around two years wherever I’m working and then I do the same thing you do.

Exactly.

The problem is HR departments and their obsession with “the brackets”. What this really is, is that they are scared that if they pay high performers what they are actually worth, they might tell other crappy people who will then demand they need more money.

What is so confusing about this fear is that there is an extremely simple solution. It’s two steps, as follows:

1. Tell your crappy performers no, the other good performers are being paid well because they are outperforming you; and
2. Don’t pay crappy performers well.

Instead HR will pretzel logic their way into not understanding the value of high performers who get fed up waiting for their raise that they should get and quit and leave to work for a competitor, who will. Now HR has to go spend more money replacing good performer and is still stuck with crappy performer.

So, this is where management needs to tell HR what to do and not let tail wagging the dog stuff happen and ruin your company by letting good performers leave. 99.9999% of the time your good performers are going to bring in way more money than any good raise you’d give them anyway and your stupid brackets are dumb, convoluted messes of matrices that lack context or real time understanding of the key issues facing given departments. Yet they still go get their mercer and stick to them for some dumb reason and watch good people cruise out the door. Just idiotic, really. Same idea with bonuses. “Oh, we max out bonuses at +/- 15% so your good performers can only get skewed up 15% and your bad ones down 15%.” Wtf? Why? They should get $0 and the good performer everything, they did all the work and added all the value.

In conclusion, HR depts suck, in my experience and ruin things, generally.

[GGG]

Does a company actually want good performers or are jobs crafted so that a 7/10 is what brings the most value to a company?

At smaller companies being good or poor makes real differences to bottom line results but in a large company say 500+ I’m not sure individual contributions matter of the structure is well organized.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by GGG

Does a company actually want good performers or are jobs crafted so that a 7/10 is what brings the most value to a company?

At smaller companies being good or poor makes real differences to bottom line results but in a large company say 500+ I’m not sure individual contributions matter of the structure is well organized.

Agree on structure but yes good people matter, absolutely. Look at TOU for example.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by GGG

Does a company actually want good performers or are jobs crafted so that a 7/10 is what brings the most value to a company?

At smaller companies being good or poor makes real differences to bottom line results but in a large company say 500+ I’m not sure individual contributions matter of the structure is well organized.

Both. You want 7/10 that give you great value and you want 3/10 to bring you to the top of your peers.

Smaller companies are typically more likely to figure out key cogs in their company that cannot be lost. Bigger have much more difficulty doing so without quantifying it.

And that's the hard part. It's actually difficult to quantify. Like any relationship, nothing is 100%. There will be things you like and things you don't like from both sides.

[peter12]

Yes, but smaller companies are also often not capable of paying important cogs what they are worth and try to sell them on nonsense like “we’re a family here.”

[BrolyTheUnholy]

Originally Posted by GGG

On the other hand with work from home the way it is I think it’s reasonable to expect some degree of work from people when they are too sick to come into the office but not not sick enough to have work issues. That’s probably at least 50% of illnesses. Especially stomach bugs where you just need to #### regularly.

If working from home is an option for people, I'm sure they would still do work at home if they were under the weather, except of course if they're really sick. If given the opportunity to work from home if I wasn't feeling well or just taking a flat out sick day to stay home anyway, I'd work.

I've never had the opportunity to work from home as my current job doesn't support it, and there are a lot of us in this situation, so we end up using those sick days.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Exactly.

The problem is HR departments and their obsession with “the brackets”. What this really is, is that they are scared that if they pay high performers what they are actually worth, they might tell other crappy people who will then demand they need more money.

What is so confusing about this fear is that there is an extremely simple solution. It’s two steps, as follows:

1. Tell your crappy performers no, the other good performers are being paid well because they are outperforming you; and
2. Don’t pay crappy performers well.

Instead HR will pretzel logic their way into not understanding the value of high performers who get fed up waiting for their raise that they should get and quit and leave to work for a competitor, who will. Now HR has to go spend more money replacing good performer and is still stuck with crappy performer.

So, this is where management needs to tell HR what to do and not let tail wagging the dog stuff happen and ruin your company by letting good performers leave. 99.9999% of the time your good performers are going to bring in way more money than any good raise you’d give them anyway and your stupid brackets are dumb, convoluted messes of matrices that lack context or real time understanding of the key issues facing given departments. Yet they still go get their mercer and stick to them for some dumb reason and watch good people cruise out the door. Just idiotic, really. Same idea with bonuses. “Oh, we max out bonuses at +/- 15% so your good performers can only get skewed up 15% and your bad ones down 15%.” Wtf? Why? They should get $0 and the good performer everything, they did all the work and added all the value.

In conclusion, HR depts suck, in my experience and ruin things, generally.

Yes. HR is the worst.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by peter12

Why do you think the TFW is working in Canada?

Because businesses successfully lobbied the government to create policies that manipulate the supposed “free market” that some are suggesting will continually provide workers with better opportunities if they just work hard.

He’s doing exactly the same thing.

I don’t think Weitz was trying to suggest that people should be setting a goal of looking halfway around the world for opportunities to get ahead in life but if I’m wrong he’s welcome to say so.

Work hard and you’ll definitely be rewarded sounds nice and all but it ignores the fact that there are only a finite number of jobs actually available for people to fill.

[Superflyer]

Originally Posted by BrolyTheUnholy

If working from home is an option for people, I'm sure they would still do work at home if they were under the weather, except of course if they're really sick. If given the opportunity to work from home if I wasn't feeling well or just taking a flat out sick day to stay home anyway, I'd work.

I've never had the opportunity to work from home as my current job doesn't support it, and there are a lot of us in this situation, so we end up using those sick days.

This is actually what I am doing right now. I am fighting a cold and feel like s*it. I am also currently working from home. If I had to commute an hour each way for work it would just be a day off, but instead I told my manager that I am sick and will be online and do what I can but I may be unavailable at times where I just need to rest for a little.
I also know others on my team do the same thing.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yes, but smaller companies are also often not capable of paying important cogs what they are worth and try to sell them on nonsense like “we’re a family here.”

Oh don’t worry Pete, some larger companies that are capable of paying more give their employees the same song and dance.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yes, but smaller companies are also often not capable of paying important cogs what they are worth and try to sell them on nonsense like “we’re a family here.”

Or in some situations, if you look at the over compensation vs the expectation of hours worked, the salary breaks down to a more competitive hourly wage.

For instance, my company pays 10-20% less than a bigger one, but our time expectation is 1800-2000 hours vs 2200-2400 for the bigger guys. That's a time spread of 8-25% increase in time expectation from the bigger firms offering "higher compensation". If a client is belligerent, we defend and support our juniors and will consider firing the client vs shrugging our shoulders and saying "it builds character". If we are underpaying, it's not 10-20% at an hourly rate based on raw total compensation. It's just slightly under par to the big firms at worst. That's not including the cost of maintaining a good culture and a supporting one that we offer (and we know we offer a significantly stronger culture and support system vs other firms of small to large size). I've had the market analysis done.

We have no issues with attrition, the bigger guys are bleeding human capital like crazy. If our employees want to go to bigger and better things, we support that. Many of our former employees have over time brought those companies to us to become our clients.

Yes, I agree you have ####### owners who play the family card while exploiting their employees or guilt tripping employees to take less so they don't leave because loyalty and family. Many other small companies are not like that to the point of the detriment of their business model survivability.

[Muta]

I don't take sick days unless I'm actually legit sick (haven't been sick in over three years, lucky me haha), but I fully support anybody staying / working from home if they are indeed sick - no sense in bringing that #### to the office, especially post-pandemic. Come back to the office when you're 100%.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Muta

My staff absolutely get paid overtime, that isn't the issue. They get properly compensated for all the work they do. I think you're missing the point a bit; this isn't a 'labour' issue at all; no one is 'exploiting' anyone, and I have never been 'exploited' in my career like you claim - it's clear you know nothing about my industry, but that's fine, I don't expect you to. My observation is that my Gen Z staff operate in a different capacity than my other staff. Like I said, I hope it's all just a one-off coincidence.

Well if you are expecting them to work for free that's exploitation. If you worked for free you were exploited. Even just remove the judgment inherent in the term and it's still just what the word means. But if you are paying them overtime (even on salary; that doesn't and shouldn't get a pass from additional and immediate compensation), then I guess they value their home life more past 5pm and that should be respected. Your challenge is finding a way to get the work done in the time you have.

Let's say you are a really high performer and have achieved extraordinary things in your field (which I believe, BTW; I'm not doubting you've done well and have risen through the ranks), that's great, but it's not realistic to think that is a path that will work for everyone.

One of my staff is a very high performer and has followed a similar path to you. She is excellent at her job and in my 20 years here nobody has ever come close to matching her output and ability. Let's call her Sue. She is often frustrated with the others not meeting her expectations and not performing to her level. I have had to remind her several times over the years that we don't want more Sues, we can't afford more Sues and we don't have the capacity to take on more Sues. We also need worker bees, but worker bees could donate an extra hour or two a day to the company and there would still never be room for them to grow. What, you want a company with a dozen vice presidents and only, like, three underlings? It wouldn't make sense.

Part of being a high performer is recognizing the limitations of your staff. You can't suggest to them if they work a little harder they'll be sitting in your chair before they know it. Not everybody can work toward the top, no company would want that, and most people don't even want to achieve that. Plenty of people are perfectly content to come in, do their job and go home to enjoy their life. Plus, who really benefits from that extra labour if they do work extra hours as you deem necessary? I'm assuming your bonus gets bigger, but their bonus...probably not so much or at least not enough to incentivize them to want to stay late since they don't seem to be doing it.

I think this generation is wise to the carrot-on-a-stick BS. If you think they'll be rewarded at some later date, reward them now. These people need to buy houses and relieve some of the financial anxiety so many have. A promise of future wealth for hard work today is a slap in the face. If they're generating wealth for you, share it with them. Promises of a pay day down the road is rude. You'll be retired with your money they helped you acquire and then who is going to keep that promise of success for them?

And that doesn't even get into how people have different priorities as they age. You can be the guy there 12 hours per day every day and then your wife pops out a kid. Guess what? You're still going to work just as hard, but only 8 hours will be at the office and then you'll go home and work on your family. Then you'll get a bit older and all of a sudden your parents get sick, so you're going to their appointments with them. People need an advocate with them when they're ill. My mom has stage 4 cancer. I can't let her be alone all the time going to appointments by herself and I guarantee you there isn't a specialist in Calgary who is going to work around my schedule and meet with us on evenings and weekends.

People need way more flexibility than the workplace offered 20 and 30 years ago.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Muta

I don't take sick days unless I'm actually legit sick (haven't been sick in over three years, lucky me haha), but I fully support anybody staying / working from home if they are indeed sick - no sense in bringing that #### to the office, especially post-pandemic. Come back to the office when you're 100%.

Why do I have the feeling you're not the type of leader to allow somebody to actually get back to 100% before expecting them to return to the office?

And three years without being sick? Is that even possible? Do you do stuff in public? I can't even fathom that.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well if you are expecting them to work for free that's exploitation. If you worked for free you were exploited. Even just remove the judgment inherent in the term and it's still just what the word means. But if you are paying them overtime (even on salary; that doesn't and shouldn't get a pass from additional and immediate compensation), then I guess they value their home life more past 5pm and that should be respected. Your challenge is finding a way to get the work done in the time you have.

Let's say you are a really high performer and have achieved extraordinary things in your field (which I believe, BTW; I'm not doubting you've done well and have risen through the ranks), that's great, but it's not realistic to think that is a path that will work for everyone.

One of my staff is a very high performer and has followed a similar path to you. She is excellent at her job and in my 20 years here nobody has ever come close to matching her output and ability. Let's call her Sue. She is often frustrated with the others not meeting her expectations and not performing to her level. I have had to remind her several times over the years that we don't want more Sues, we can't afford more Sues and we don't have the capacity to take on more Sues. We also need worker bees, but worker bees could donate an extra hour or two a day to the company and there would still never be room for them to grow. What, you want a company with a dozen vice presidents and only, like, three underlings? It wouldn't make sense.

Part of being a high performer is recognizing the limitations of your staff. You can't suggest to them if they work a little harder they'll be sitting in your chair before they know it. Not everybody can work toward the top, no company would want that, and most people don't even want to achieve that. Plenty of people are perfectly content to come in, do their job and go home to enjoy their life. Plus, who really benefits from that extra labour if they do work extra hours as you deem necessary? I'm assuming your bonus gets bigger, but their bonus...probably not so much or at least not enough to incentivize them to want to stay late since they don't seem to be doing it.

I think this generation is wise to the carrot-on-a-stick BS. If you think they'll be rewarded at some later date, reward them now. These people need to buy houses and relieve some of the financial anxiety so many have. A promise of future wealth for hard work today is a slap in the face. If they're generating wealth for you, share it with them. Promises of a pay day down the road is rude. You'll be retired with your money they helped you acquire and then who is going to keep that promise of success for them?

And that doesn't even get into how people have different priorities as they age. You can be the guy there 12 hours per day every day and then your wife pops out a kid. Guess what? You're still going to work just as hard, but only 8 hours will be at the office and then you'll go home and work on your family. Then you'll get a bit older and all of a sudden your parents get sick, so you're going to their appointments with them. People need an advocate with them when they're ill. My mom has stage 4 cancer. I can't let her be alone all the time going to appointments by herself and I guarantee you there isn't a specialist in Calgary who is going to work around my schedule and meet with us on evenings and weekends.

People need way more flexibility than the workplace offered 20 and 30 years ago.

Yeah sorry dude, there's no 'exploitation' here, despite your best efforts to try and create that into existence. I appreciate your comments Silver, I do, but it's apparent you don't understand my industry, the working environment that we operate in, the compensation model, the opportunity for advancement, or the the day-to-day happenings in what we do. And that's totally okay. I don't know your company (and you'll notice I have refrained from commenting on yours, even though you've gone into large detail), and don't really care to. And unless I work with you day-to-day, I simply won't make black and white, possibly inaccurate assumptions about your workplace.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Why do I have the feeling you're not the type of leader to allow somebody to actually get back to 100% before expecting them to return to the office?

Honestly dude, you're an overly-dramatic, insufferable ass on this board sometimes. Congrats on being wrong - again.

Originally Posted by Sliver

And three years without being sick? Is that even possible? Do you do stuff in public? I can't even fathom that.

Yeah it's possible. Some of us actually take care of ourselves, and have been lucky enough to not been sick. Get over it.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by GGG

On the other hand with work from home the way it is I think it’s reasonable to expect some degree of work from people when they are too sick to come into the office but not not sick enough to have work issues. That’s probably at least 50% of illnesses. Especially stomach bugs where you just need to #### regularly.

Totally agree GGG, and at least in my experience I have seen some evidence of this at my employer. In the past if you were sick and stayed home then that was it, nothing much was expected from you. Now with WFH being so simple I would expect that most people would be able to function at least in some capacity if they were at home with a cold etc.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Muta

My Gen Z staff always needing time off, taking multiple appointments a month (and of course, during the day, not before work / at lunch / after work), requesting to work from home all the time, never putting in a minute more past 5 PM, or becoming sick on the slightest whim RGMG. I've noticed this over the last few years, and it just increased during and after the pandemic. I sure hope it's just a complete coincidence, or they're easily the most high maintenance generation of workers ever, haha. I'll go back to yelling at my cloud now.

Originally Posted by Muta

Yeah sorry dude, there's no 'exploitation' here, despite your best efforts to try and create that into existence. I appreciate your comments Silver, I do, but it's apparent you don't understand my industry, the working environment that we operate in, the compensation model, the opportunity for advancement, or the the day-to-day happenings in what we do. And that's totally okay. I don't know your company (and you'll notice I have refrained from commenting on yours, even though you've gone into large detail), and don't really care to. And unless I work with you day-to-day, I simply won't make black and white, possibly inaccurate assumptions about your workplace.

Okay, fair enough. I mean, I guess I'm still just basing my comments on what you've said. You belittled Gen Z for not working past 5, but I think if you want to take people's personal time that's exploitation or time theft. If you want them to work past 5 and you are willing to pay them overtime, I think they can still say 'no thanks' and that should be respected, not admonished.

But, like, missing work for appointments? Yeah, most things are open during business hours, so that's when people have to make their appointments. What's wrong with that? I don't get it.

Anyway, apparently your industry is special. I do hear that a lot and perhaps success for you requires working your people beyond what they want to work in order to please your customers. I suppose at the end of the day they're good enough to keep around and you're good enough of an employer to prevent them from quitting.

Sounds like an uncomfortable relationship, but as you say, I don't know what you do and I do come at this from a bit of a place of privilege in that I get to call my own shots here. I will say I am speaking from experience, though. I took over this company from a boomer that operated it very much in boomer fashion with an upstairs/downstairs mindset between ownership and staff. It has taken a long time to turn it around and come up with options to give people more flexibility/perks/pay/privileges without grenading the company in the process. Plus, I have to be fair to my own investment - if this company isn't going to make money I owe it to myself and my family to sell it and invest elsewhere. If you're going to own a company you can't be altruistic to the point of being stupid with your stake in the business.

I just don't think it's to most people's benefit to give up too much personal time for a company. Some people will rise through the ranks like you did, but for most people, they'll just have given up time, added stress, taken away from personal relationships and will not have achieved anything for the effort.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Muta

Honestly dude, you're an overly-dramatic, insufferable ass on this board sometimes. Congrats on being wrong - again.

Yeah it's possible. Some of us actually take care of ourselves, and have been lucky enough to not been sick. Get over it.

If you haven't been sick it isn't because you're super awesome and I love the implication that you have volition over fighting germs by "taking care of yourself." Like, viruses don't affect you because you eat your veggies, but those weak Gen Zers should just hit the gym and then they wouldn't need to call in sick. Give me a break. Maybe you do have a super immune system, but the judgement from you toward people who get sick or have to go to appointments has oozed out of every post you've written on this topic. It's actually hilarious.

[White Out 403]

I really ####ed up my slow cooker beef recipe. it came out so bland.

Words escape me to describe it. mmm maybe open chat AI can help. Here is a haiku from chatgpt.

Disappointing meal,
Slow cooker's sad, heavy heart sinks.
Mournful pot of stew.