Russia invades Ukraine

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

####ing pathetic.

Deny all you want.

It doesn't change the truth.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing here? The State of Croatia committed war crimes? That was proven not to be true.

You saw Croatian fighters committing crimes? Many of their commanders are in prison right now, convicted by Croatian courts.

You are clearly unable to remove the emotion from the discussion, which is understandable since you allegedly were there. Not that I really care what you think, but it's interesting the fervor you have for Croatian crimes, but make no mention of literal genocide that happened against Bosnian civilians in Srebrenica or the siege of Sarajevo or Vukovar where countless crimes were committed.

I'd estimate 90% of international community view Croatia and Bosnia as victims of Serbian aggression, committed by the Serbian state in concert local Serbian insurgents. Very comparable to Russian insurgents in Donbas (which is in Ukraine) assisting the Russian state in their illegal invasion.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

since you allegedly were there.

#### you.

[CroFlames]

Wow dude.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Wow dude.

You earned that **** you. Don't act like you didn't imply that UCB is lying about serving in the Canadian Forces during the wars in Croatia, Kosovo, and Bosnia & Herzegovina.

[Hockeyguy15]

Chris Rock got slapped for less.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Reaper

You earned that **** you. Don't act like you didn't imply that UCB is lying about serving in the Canadian Forces during the wars in Croatia, Kosovo, and Bosnia & Herzegovina.

Right. I forgot we have to tip toe around him.

[TheIronMaiden]

I am surprised that anyone in the Balkans can try pull the innocent victims card. Even at a glance it seems obvious that the situation in the Balkans was a cluster#### since the turn of the century. Trading atrocities is the only reasonable way of describing it.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Right. I forgot we have to tip toe around him.

Put those goalposts on a truck and move them across country. Not saying inflammatory trash like "allegedly" in reference to someone's military service isn't tip toeing. It's called being a decent human being. You crossed a line to score points in an internet argument and are acting put out because you got called on it.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I'm not even sure what you are arguing here? The State of Croatia committed war crimes? That was proven not to be true.

You saw Croatian fighters committing crimes? Many of their commanders are in prison right now, convicted by Croatian courts.

You are clearly unable to remove the emotion from the discussion, which is understandable since you allegedly were there. Not that I really care what you think, but it's interesting the fervor you have for Croatian crimes, but make no mention of literal genocide that happened against Bosnian civilians in Srebrenica or the siege of Sarajevo or Vukovar where countless crimes were committed.

I'd estimate 90% of international community view Croatia and Bosnia as victims of Serbian aggression, committed by the Serbian state in concert local Serbian insurgents. Very comparable to Russian insurgents in Donbas (which is in Ukraine) assisting the Russian state in their illegal invasion.

I find that arguing Balkan politics usually takes to much energy and offers very little reward, and it is never very rewarding either.

I think for people like UB, there is some underlying context that makes things difficult to relate. I would put it like this... The current invasion and illegal occupation of Ukraine has been going on roughly 6 weeks and most people can't imagine how hard it is for Ukrainians to see people being killed and their towns destroyed over that short time. This despite the fact that they (Ukraine) are least getting material support, have a functioning military, and because of media coverage, everything is on full display.

In Croatia/Bosnia, the invasion went on for almost 3 years before any outside support materialized and the media was allowed to cover everything. Milosevic banned reporters. For those first 3 years, the JNA was able to act with impunity with almost no media coverage as the JNA largely controlled who was allowed in to report. All the stuff we see Russia doing in Ukraine happened there for 3 years.

But then you fast forward 3 years, Croatia and Bosnia were able to build militaries, gain control and Western support, and suddenly there were people there to witness everything. Some of the retributive actions would seem disproportionate to someone who just arrived in 1993 or 1994 if they didn't witness what had come before. Even at the end of WW2, there were reports of French and British soldiers breaking ranks and fighting with German soldiers as Germany fell because they felt the actions were disproportionate. I would be pleasantly surprised if the current scale of the Ukrainian war continues for a few more years, that we don't see some extreme actions by some individuals on the Ukrainian military side.

Honestly, war is a crime. It's a collection of crimes ranging from large to small, and no side is ever 100% innocent. One thing that is interesting, is that two prominent generals that were on trial (one Serb, and one Croat) were both eventually acquitted on appeal. The main reason why they were acquitted is that they were both accused of indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas, but the evidence shown in court of the artillery records indicated that they both did a better job of avoiding civilian targets that what the Americans did in Iraq, and the British in Afghanistan. The lawyers argued that if their clients were guilty of war crimes, then the British and Americans should be tried too. They pointed out the double standard that was being applied, and I think both sides had a valid point.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

OK so yeah, why are people talking about the Balkans in this thread?

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

I'm re-posting this link.

It is a really important read.

Russia. Not Putin. Russia, as a country, as a people, need to make amends for this. Nothing Russia ever does can make what they've done right. But they can start to make amends. And that starts by owning that what is occurring is a result of who they are as a nation.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/0...ible-pub-86822

The article no longer seems available at the link. Summary of key points?

Without knowing the argument, the idea of holding Russia 'as a people' responsible for the actions of their government in something like this makes no sense to me. It's not even like it's a functioning democracy. The vast majority of people are simply along for the ride without a voice in the process.

Even in a functioning democracy I wouldn't hold everyone responsible. That doesn't mean people can't or shouldn't learn and change, but they shouldn't bear the guilt or responsibility for things that they had no part in.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

OK so yeah, why are people talking about the Balkans in this thread?

People are using history to contextualize the present. I think it is a fruitful conversation.

[burn_this_city]

Don't accuse people of stolen valor then pretend to be offended.

[afc wimbledon]

As far as I can tell the only innocent ethnic group in the Balkans war was the Bosnian Muslim population, everyone shat on them, Serbs in particular.

All Civil wars are grim bitter rapey murderous affairs, and with no dog in the fight I have no doubt that Croations did some despicable things, Croations and Serbs hate each other with a passion even here, there respective soccer teams in Vancouver have to be kept apart and occasionally banned from competing due to the hatred.

That said the Serbs did seem to outdo everyone on the scumbag scale in the civil war

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

OK so yeah, why are people talking about the Balkans in this thread?

undercoverbrother seems to either hate Croatia and try and rehabilitate Serbian image for some reason. Serbia was a nation of war criminals led by a war criminal. CroFlames was standing up for Croatia and perhaps did so a little ineloquently but I think it's time to get back on topic of Ukraine being invaded and subjected to war criminals in Russia (also Serbias ally, weird hey)

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I am surprised that anyone in the Balkans can try pull the innocent victims card. Even at a glance it seems obvious that the situation in the Balkans was a cluster#### since the turn of the century. Trading atrocities is the only reasonable way of describing it.

People are giving in to the temptation to turn wars into good guys vs bad guys Hollywood movies. The truth is that multiple sides in a war can (and typically do) engage in slaughter of civilians, rape, and atrocity. War isn’t a movie. It’s a catastrophic horror-show, no matter who the participants are.

[Envitro]

As someone who lived through the Balkan wars as a child before escaping to Canada, I can say that everyone is a little bit correct. Everyone did ####ty things, but I say that with a caveat since it's dependent on the geography of what took place and when.

I'm from Sarajevo, was there for the first 3 months of the shelling and murder that was thrust upon the people of that city (and Bosnia in general) by the JNA-backed Serb militias.

The situation in Croatia was entirely different, and in different parts of that country as well.

The Croats wanted to expel the Serbs out of western Croatian towns and areas that they had historically inhabited and took on an ethnic cleansing campaign, just as the Serbs tried to do in Vukovar in NE Croatia.

The Serbs did the same thing throughout Bosnia, a republic where ~75% of marriages were ethnically mixed. How the F do you pick a side, and who is Serb enough to live or stay in their home then?

Anyway, this whole Ukraine this is entirely different, where it's two longtime-sovereign nations fighting one another, where one is clearly the invader/aggressor, and the other smaller country is the victim of aggression by its numerically and economically superior foe.

Putin needs to be put on trial, or put out of his misery by the people of Russia.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

As far as I can tell the only innocent ethnic group in the Balkans war was the Bosnian Muslim population, everyone shat on them, Serbs in particular.

All Civil wars are grim bitter rapey murderous affairs, and with no dog in the fight I have no doubt that Croations did some despicable things, Croations and Serbs hate each other with a passion even here, there respective soccer teams in Vancouver have to be kept apart and occasionally banned from competing due to the hatred.

That said the Serbs did seem to outdo everyone on the scumbag scale in the civil war

If you look at the proportion of people prosecuted at the international level after the conflict, it probably paints a pretty accurate picture. About 2/3rds were Serbs, about 1/4 were Croats, about 1/8 were Bosniaks, and the rest split between Albanians, Montenegrins, and a small handful for foreign volunteers. I definitely sympathize with Bosniaks who were fighting two fronts at one point and suffered the largest single massacre and longest sieges. Croats and Bosniaks have also done a fairly decent job of prosecuting people domestically for war crimes outside of the international courts, something that can't be said for the other side.

You can never completely control what soldiers will do in a war (many of whom suffer from extreme emotional suffering). Many of the people who committed crimes were barely even soldiers, but were militarized civilians acting outside of a central command. This is another reason why Ukraine may be better controlled. They have an established military, although there are some civilian militias too and those are the ones you need to keep tabs on the most IMO.

[timun]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

OK so yeah, why are people talking about the Balkans in this thread?

At least it's a pretty good blueprint for what is likely to happen for a generation or two in the aftermath of the Ukraine-Russia conflict: people are going to be arguing about who did what when, who was 'worse', etc. even decades afterward. Even if Putin was deposed tomorrow and a new, sane, democratically-elected Russian government immediately withdrew all troops, the wounds inflicted in this war will still simmer for a long, long time... On both sides.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by timun

At least it's a pretty good blueprint for what is likely to happen for a generation or two in the aftermath of the Ukraine-Russia conflict: people are going to be arguing about who did what when, who was 'worse', etc. even decades afterward. Even if Putin was deposed tomorrow and a new, sane, democratically-elected Russian government immediately withdrew all troops, the wounds inflicted in this war will still simmer for a long, long time... On both sides.

When you look at the justifications Putin is using, there are indeed many similarities and therefore things that can be avoided or predicted. De-nazification, uniting your people into the motherland, supporting breakaway regions, gaining access to valuable ports... they were all used as a pretense back then as well. It's almost exactly the same script. The only real difference is that Russia waited 30 years to make their move.

There are other differences of course. With Yugoslavia, there was an arms embargo put in place for all sides. This didn't hurt the Serbian side much though because they controlled most of the JNA, which was the 4th largest military in Europe at the time. The newly independent republics started with almost nothing though, just whatever they could capture and "fell off the truck" at the Hungarian border. By the time they got armed, there was a lot of pent up anger.