People are going to be upset with a Muslim teacher leads the class in prayer in the morning.
Americans don't even need that to get upset. They just need two Saudi kids on the same field who will choose to pray to allah instead, while the rest of the class prays to god
Here’s the thing, I’m not looking for particular reasons anyone in my life made that choice, that’s their business. But I know there’s a line here and I don’t know where that is in all this. It’s a discussion of when a fetus is a human as much as a woman’s right. I look at the extreme and if a fetus was 9 months old and someone hypothetically said they didn’t want it anymore, would that be right? I’d say no. Again, where does the line get drawn?
It happens. It’s called giving a child up for adoption.
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Here’s the thing, I’m not looking for particular reasons anyone in my life made that choice, that’s their business. But I know there’s a line here and I don’t know where that is in all this. It’s a discussion of when a fetus is a human as much as a woman’s right. I look at the extreme and if a fetus was 9 months old and someone hypothetically said they didn’t want it anymore, would that be right? I’d say no. Again, where does the line get drawn?
Well considering that it is estimated that 0.02% of all abortions are performed after 26 weeks (almost all to preserve the life of the mother) you would have to search hard to find a woman who has had a late term abortion. One would have to (assuming perfect randomness) talk to 5000 women who have had abortions to find one that had a late term abortion. It is highly likely that (medical personnel excluded) there is a single person on Calgarypuck who has spoken with a woman that had a late term abortion.
Last edited by Aarongavey; 06-27-2022 at 05:59 PM.
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Well considering that it is estimated that 0.02% of all abortions are performed after 26 weeks (almost all to preserve the life of the mother) you would have to search hard to find a woman who has had a late term abortion. One would have to (assuming perfect randomness) talk to 5000 women who have had abortions to find one that had a late term abortion. It is highly likely that (medical personnel excluded) there is a single person on Calgarypuck who has spoken with a woman that had a late term abortion.
And that’s a totally fair and a good stat. What I would like to know is where it’s fair to have the lines drawn? There are so many good arguments for a variety of things.
And that’s a totally fair and a good stat. What I would like to know is where it’s fair to have the lines drawn? There are so many good arguments for a variety of things.
How about 26 weeks, unless the mother’s life is in danger, then it can be past that date.
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Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleury
Personally, I see moreso the line being drawn at a beating heart so 6.5 months seems crazy late. I don’t know the answer though.
Why a heart though? And what constitutes a heart?
Why not draw the line at a working spleen, or lungs?
A “heartbeat” exists long before there is anything resembling a working heart.
That’s an arbitrary milestone that really doesn’t define viability.
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Why a heart though? And what constitutes a heart?
Why not draw the line at a working spleen, or lungs?
A “heartbeat” exists long before there is anything resembling a working heart.
That’s an arbitrary milestone that really doesn’t define viability.
Totally fair argument. I’m not sure where the answer is, but I don’t think it’s clear cut one way or another. It’s probably the most debatable subject out there as there are so many sides to it, from the women’s to the baby’s.
Totally fair argument. I’m not sure where the answer is, but I don’t think it’s clear cut one way or another. It’s probably the most debatable subject out there as there are so many sides to it, from the women’s to the baby’s.
It’s probably best left up to the individual and their healthcare professional then eh?
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A part of the hostility towards those who are against abortions on religious grounds is that the same group typically does not support up stream determinants of abortions IE comprehensive sex education and increased access to contraceptives.
These folks are not making solutions based arguments, they are offering wishful thinking.
Because for many people who are anti-choice, it's not actually about saving babies. If it was about saving babies they would be pressing the US on why our infant mortality rate is so poor, why our maternal mortality rate is so low, why there isn't guaranteed maternity leave, guaranteed healthcare for new moms/babies.
If it was about saving babies they'd worry about that baby out of the womb, and if it was about preventing abortion they would support contraception/proper sex ed.
It's about 1) controlling women and 2) punishing women for the "sin" of sex without the sole purpose of reproduction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleury
Personally, I see moreso the line being drawn at a beating heart so 6.5 months seems crazy late. I don’t know the answer though.
Ahh but this is also a vague answer because are we talking the electric pulse that eventually becomes a true heartbeat? Or are we talking about much deeper in the pregnancy when an actual heart has formed and a regular heartbeat starts?
Quote:
But according to experts, the term “fetal heartbeat” is misleading and medically inaccurate.
“While the heart does begin to develop at around six weeks, at this point the heart as we know it does not yet exist,” said Dr. Ian Fraser Golding, a pediatric and fetal cardiologist at Rady Children’s Hospital San Diego.
Instead, at six weeks, the embryo will develop a tube that generates sporadic electrical impulses that eventually coordinate into rhythmic pulses, he said.
Quote:
It’s not until around 17 to 20 weeks, when the four chambers of the heart have developed and can be detected on an ultrasound, that the term heartbeat is accurate, according to ACOG.
It’s probably best left up to the individual and their healthcare professional then eh?
It's funny how these same types who are thrilled about the idea of the government stepping in on these intensely personal decisions were up in arms when the ACA happened, because they didn't want the government involved in their healthcare decisions. Really interesting how all those arguments fell apart, between wanting the government involved in pregnancy/contraception, and ranting about "death panels" while then making the decision that it was just old/sick people's time to die during Covid.
Ideally this should be the correct take. This is a personal medical decision between a woman, her doctor, and whatever faith she might have.
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Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleury
if a fetus was 9 months old and someone hypothetically said they didn’t want it anymore, would that be right?
Why the #### would a woman go through 9 months of pregnancy and THEN decide "Well, that was fun, but I'm out. Out!" The thing about hypotheticals is that they should have at least a smidgen of plausibility.
"What if I impregnated an alien and she laid an egg? IS THE 'DENNY'S SCRAMBLER' MURDER?!?!"
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Why the #### would a woman go through 9 months of pregnancy and THEN decide "Well, that was fun, but I'm out. Out!" The thing about hypotheticals is that they should have at least a smidgen of plausibility.
"What if I impregnated an alien and she laid an egg? IS THE 'DENNY'S SCRAMBLER' MURDER?!?!"
Sex you don’t want (I know you can find out earlier ) mental or physical problems . Race (could have cheated and didn’t know which father was kid)
It would be extremely rare - no argument - but it isn’t hard to think of some scenarios that could occur
None of those are logical examples of why someone would carry a baby to term and abort pre-delivery and… wait…
… did you just name “race” as a reason to abort a baby at 9 months?
Yes - guess what people sleep with multiple partners and sometimes there are “surprises” at birth.
You don’t think a husband seeing a different race baby may say “get rid of this immediately” right after birth ….
There are also extreme family pressure where a young women after birth could
Make a decision based on immediate pressure
You dont see any chance that a young women who has a family against mixed race babies and has a mixed race child getting pressured by the family or panicking right after birth to “abort”
We literally have just seen religious nuts fight to change Roe, and you don’t think religious racists people would ever “abort” a newborn based on race ….
Lol. I wonder if the Dems, completely not of their own doing here, might trip and stumble into a situation where liberals in the US now rush to polls in November as a result of the abortion ruling, allowing them to maintain a majority in the House.
Well, they want money first.
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Yes - guess what people sleep with multiple partners and sometimes there are “surprises” at birth.
You don’t think a husband seeing a different race baby may say “get rid of this immediately” right after birth ….
There are also extreme family pressure where a young women after birth could
Make a decision based on immediate pressure
You dont see any chance that a young women who has a family against mixed race babies and has a mixed race child getting pressured by the family or panicking right after birth to “abort”
We literally have just seen religious nuts fight to change Roe, and you don’t think religious racists people would ever “abort” a newborn based on race ….
Well they’d probably just give the baby up for adoption but sure man, I’m sure people are out there clubbing newborn mixed-race babies.
I too think “they care about a fetus more than a person” but no, I don’t actually think the same people fighting to end abortions actually turn pro-infanticide when the baby comes out mixed-race.
And it kind of presents the question of what the #### you’re talking about considering that has literally nothing to do with the right to abortions. You can’t have an abortion after birth, because there’s nothing to abort.
Yes - guess what people sleep with multiple partners and sometimes there are “surprises” at birth.
You don’t think a husband seeing a different race baby may say “get rid of this immediately” right after birth ….
There are also extreme family pressure where a young women after birth could
Make a decision based on immediate pressure
You dont see any chance that a young women who has a family against mixed race babies and has a mixed race child getting pressured by the family or panicking right after birth to “abort”
We literally have just seen religious nuts fight to change Roe, and you don’t think religious racists people would ever “abort” a newborn based on race ….
Just … what? This is such a completely nonsensical scenario.
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