Russia invades Ukraine

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Coach

Couldn’t he just say Ukraine was preventing people from leaving?

If the truth doesn’t matter he can make basically anything up.

He couldn't, it's well-known that it was Russia who controlled Russia-Donbass border.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Itse

Worth remembering that these are impossible to verify as real.

Why is it impossible to verify a staged demonstration in protest to Russia?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Pointman

He couldn't, it's well-known that it was Russia who controlled Russia-Donbass border.

Yep, that area has not been under Ukrainian control for quite some time and Russia has already extended citizenship to the people there and have had an open border.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Itse

Worth remembering that these are impossible to verify as real.

you are right of course but as I have said before the Russian Army has, as the police would say, form in these areas, they have been notorious for the most abysmal treatment of civilians, rape and theft has always been seen a side benefit for Russian troops in war

[Redliner]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

you are right of course but as I have said before the Russian Army has, as the police would say, form in these areas, they have been notorious for the most abysmal treatment of civilians, rape and theft has always been seen a side benefit for Russian troops in war

If even a fraction of this stuff is true, Hell is going to need some major renovations to make room for these bastards.

[Cheese]

US sending 100 Switchblade drones to Ukraine.

[FlameOn]

MOD updates for the day. MOD updates appear to show Russian withdraw near complete north of Ukraine, though some areas are still contested near Kharkiv and Sumy areas. Russians appear to be stepping up their attack on Mariupol though. No other real updates for the day.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1511640825549279233

https://twitter.com/user/status/1511563287057551368

Larger map from Wikipedia

Spoiler!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_R...ion_of_Ukraine

[Pointman]

Putin's rhetoric is getting weaker each day. Now he says that sanctions are a price Russian people have to pay for their freedom and independence. Well, before the war we had just as much "freedom and independence", as we have now. In fact, we had way more freedom - at least we had western media in the country and had a little bit of free speech, compared to now. We also could use Udemy, Facebook, could fly to other countries... We also could trade western securities (I had few Amazon shares for instance). We definitely lost a lot of freedom, rather than gained freedom at the price of sanctions, as Putin implies.

Yet, polls say that support for war and Putin's popularity are allegedly rising. That's because people don't tell true in polls. If a random man calls me and asks whether I support the war and Putin in general, I would say "yes". There's no incentive for me to say "no". I would sure say "yes" and move on with my life. So does everyone.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Putin's rhetoric is getting weaker each day. Now he says that sanctions are a price Russian people have to pay for their freedom and independence. Well, before the war we had just as much "freedom and independence", as we have now. In fact, we had way more freedom - at least we had western media in the country and had a little bit of free speech, compared to now. We also could use Udemy, Facebook, could fly to other countries... We also could trade western securities (I had few Amazon shares for instance). We definitely lost a lot of freedom, rather than gained freedom at the price of sanctions, as Putin implies.

Yet, support for war and Putin's popularity are allegedly rising. That's because people don't tell true in polls. If a random man calls me and asks whether I support the war and Putin in general, I would say "yes". There's no incentive for me to say "no". I would sure say "yes" and move on with my life. So does everyone.

Just curious how do you know support is rising? Is this based on observations of those you associate with or polls? Honestly if I lived in Russia I would probably be afraid to vote online anonymously even. Pretty good chance polls are doctored anyway. I don't blame any Russian citizen who is in favor really. A bunch of factors that come into play. I wouldn't want to get black bagged into a van or see family killed because of something I said if I'm being honest here. Putin has put his people in a no win scenario

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Just curious how do you know support is rising? Is this based on observations of those you associate with or polls? Honestly if I lived in Russia I would probably be afraid to vote online anonymously even. Pretty good chance polls are doctored anyway. I don't blame any Russian citizen who is in favor really. A bunch of factors that come into play. I wouldn't want to get black bagged into a van or see family killed because of something I said if I'm being honest here. Putin has put his people in a no win scenario

The risk of speaking out is definitely real, especially if you are a person of influence. I also think unwavering patriotism is really big in Russia. There seems to be the sentiment that many people don't want to be fighting with Ukraine, so they easily buy into what Putin is selling. For some that are against the war, they still support it because regardless of what is happening, they still want Russia to be victorious. Right or wrong isn't the issue for those people, it's about winning or losing. They feel that they are already in too deep and the damage to their country is already done, so winning at this point is just preferable, so might as well support it.

The U.S. is similar in some ways, and I suppose most countries would be like that. For example, the Iraq War was widely unpopular in the U.S. You certainly had the "hurrah" right wing supporters that just wanted to kick ass, but a lot of people opposed the war on moral grounds still supported the overall effort and wanted the U.S. to at least be victorious and not routed. A lot of democrats and left leaners vocally criticized the war, but used the "support the troops" rallying cry to justify continuing the overall effort. It was probably a relative minority that realistically thought just pulling out mid-invasion was in the best interests of the country.

[Mr.Coffee]

Hey now give the Russians and Americans some credit, it would be nearly impossible to get 100% of your population to support a war effort.

Unless of course you’re Ukraine, and you know you’re going to win.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The risk of speaking out is definitely real, especially if you are a person of influence. I also think unwavering patriotism is really big in Russia. There seems to be the sentiment that many people don't want to be fighting with Ukraine, so they easily buy into what Putin is selling. For some that are against the war, they still support it because regardless of what is happening, they still want Russia to be victorious. Right or wrong isn't the issue for those people, it's about winning or losing. They feel that they are already in too deep and the damage to their country is already done, so winning at this point is just preferable, so might as well support it.

The U.S. is similar in some ways, and I suppose most countries would be like that. For example, the Iraq War was widely unpopular in the U.S. You certainly had the "hurrah" right wing supporters that just wanted to kick ass, but a lot of people opposed the war on moral grounds still supported the overall effort and wanted the U.S. to at least be victorious and not routed. A lot of democrats and left leaners vocally criticized the war, but used the "support the troops" rallying cry to justify continuing the overall effort. It was probably a relative minority that realistically thought just pulling out mid-invasion was in the best interests of the country.

True, now that we are so doing such a wrong thing anyway, we could find some solace in winning. Problem is, we are wrong AND losing. Yet, to Russian people credit, many were against the war from the start, even when most thought we gonna roll over Ukraine.

[Mr.Coffee]

The big problem the world has if / when Ukraine wins is what does a guy like Putin do when he has literally nothing else to lose? I mean, pretty clear the war is all about him anyway.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The risk of speaking out is definitely real, especially if you are a person of influence. I also think unwavering patriotism is really big in Russia. There seems to be the sentiment that many people don't want to be fighting with Ukraine, so they easily buy into what Putin is selling. For some that are against the war, they still support it because regardless of what is happening, they still want Russia to be victorious. Right or wrong isn't the issue for those people, it's about winning or losing. They feel that they are already in too deep and the damage to their country is already done, so winning at this point is just preferable, so might as well support it.



The U.S. is similar in some ways, and I suppose most countries would be like that. For example, the Iraq War was widely unpopular in the U.S. You certainly had the "hurrah" right wing supporters that just wanted to kick ass, but a lot of people opposed the war on moral grounds still supported the overall effort and wanted the U.S. to at least be victorious and not routed. A lot of democrats and left leaners vocally criticized the war, but used the "support the troops" rallying cry to justify continuing the overall effort. It was probably a relative minority that realistically thought just pulling out mid-invasion was in the best interests of the country.

Even western democracies lie to and manipulate their people... Russia obviously on another level with propaganda though. I'm thinking a century's worth of indoctrination and living under a real threat of murder if you step out of line might contribute to their attitudes today. We have no way of relating to that. Undoing brainwashing on that level would take decades at least and we are probably a long ways away from even starting that process. I hate Putin for this war but the bigger picture is not some black and white thing. What really sucks is that even if Putin dies, someone similar or even worse will replace him. We really are insanely lucky to live in Canada

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Redliner

If even a fraction of this stuff is true, Hell is going to need some major renovations to make room for these bastards.

Frankly, I'd prefer to assume they were fake. The atrocities of war are not things i like to think about. I know it's bad, I don't need the details. I prefer ignorance. I appreciate this a privilege I have, but for my own mental health I need to exercise it.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Even western democracies lie to and manipulate their people... Russia obviously on another level with propaganda though. I'm thinking a century's worth of indoctrination and living under a real threat of murder if you step out of line might contribute to their attitudes today. We have no way of relating to that. Undoing brainwashing on that level would take decades at least and we are probably a long ways away from even starting that process. I hate Putin for this war but the bigger picture is not some black and white thing. What really sucks is that even if Putin dies, someone similar or even worse will replace him. We really are insanely lucky to live in Canada

I actually think people overestimate the influence on individual thought in authoritarian countries and underestimate the influence on thought in democracies. 1984 vs. Brave New World. Plenty of influence and resistance in each context.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

you are right of course but as I have said before the Russian Army has, as the police would say, form in these areas, they have been notorious for the most abysmal treatment of civilians, rape and theft has always been seen a side benefit for Russian troops in war

This is all true, but I would still be careful to believe everything you hear.

Ukraine has a strong interest to exaggerate three things:
- How common, widespread and largescale are the atrocities
- Whether or not there are huge differences between different groups. The Russian invasion force after all is fairly un-unified, with various troop types, numerous high ranking officers dead and the operation such a cluster###### in general. We don't know how the atrocities are happening. Is it a direct result of orders from above or troops taking matters on their own hands. If there are some Russian units or officers actively trying to avoid civilian casualties, we would never hear about it. If Russian infantrymen are executed on the field by their officers (or fellow soldiers) for doing this stuff, we would never hear about it, even though that stuff also happens pretty regularly in chaotic wars like this.
- How much the Russian population supports the atrocities. It's clearly in the interest of Ukraine to conjur an image that Russians as a nation support mass murder of Ukrainians, but that very likely isn't true. At least not yet. Once Russian civilians find out how many Russian soldiers died in Ukraine, this might change.

Let's remember that while executing civilians en masse is clearly a war crime, from the point of view of the Russians it's in some ways pretty rational, considering the amount of open resistance from the civilian population. Executing men who you think are "all spies or resistance fighters anyway" or torturing someone "for information" is pretty different from hunting girls for entertainment. Even if this is legit, it's likely the absolute worst case the Ukrainians could find out of all the conversations they're listening to. It's great propaganda, but ultimately it's just one guy.
Ukrainians aren't going to release tapes where Russian soldiers come off as sympathetic.

I'm not saying that it's not possible that Russian war crimes are even more horrible than what we've heard so far, but it's just as likely that the way the internet loves to spread the most outrageous things out there could also distort the reality on the scale of things.

Personally I don't much care though, as I see the whole war in itself as such an extreme atrocity and every Russian taking part or supporting it as complicit. But my response to that aren't fantasies of violent retribution or declarations of hatred towards all Russians but rather further support for sanctions and other political actions.

There's a real risk that this escalates into violent russofobia all around the world and here in Finland where I know quite a few people who would get targeted, and I think we need to be careful to not give fuel to that fire.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Frankly, I'd prefer to assume they were fake. The atrocities of war are not things i like to think about. I know it's bad, I don't need the details. I prefer ignorance. I appreciate this a privilege I have, but for my own mental health I need to exercise it.

You can't stomach the barbarity so you assume it's fake and absolve the perpetrators?

This is a terrible, terrible position. I understand not wanting to look at that content for your own mental health, but the rest of what you said is verging on evil levels of indifference.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Pointman

True, now that we are so doing such a wrong thing anyway, we could find some solace in winning. Problem is, we are wrong AND losing. Yet, to Russian people credit, many were against the war from the start, even when most thought we gonna roll over Ukraine.

Are the sanctions having any effect on the average Russian Pointy?
Groceries, gas, entertainment?

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

You can't stomach the barbarity so you assume it's fake and absolve the perpetrators?

This is a terrible, terrible position. I understand not wanting to look at that content for your own mental health, but the rest of what you said is verging on evil levels of indifference.

Trying to be fair, I'm guessing he meant to say he's hoping some of them are fake, rather than he's assuming the are. It's a grim reality, and the fewer of these incidents actually happening, the better.

I'm with him on not watching the videos. I've seen a few and I tend not to watch any more.
I know these things are happening and it breaks my heart, but it's doing me no good to view them.