Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by peter12

Probably not the families of the 1000s buried in mass graves outside of Hue.

Maybe not them... but certainly the millions killed by American/South Vietnamese forces...

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Uh... the people of Vietnam consider them to be freedom fighters. Isn't their point of view the most important one? Oh... but you used rolly-eyes, so I guess you're right... touche.

My Lai was one incident. The US killed 1.5-4 million Vietnamese between '65 and '75 hunting down 'terrorists' (which the indigenous population did/does believe were freedom fighters).

Though, I suppose if the only valid viewpoint is a Western one, then the Godless commies won, and the dominoes are... just... about... to... fall. Gimme a break.

The US involvement in Vietnam was by no means a unilateral endeavour. They were there at the request of the South Vietnamese government, (ARVN suffered 200 000 dead and 500 000 casualties total during the war) and to blame the civilian casualties on the Americans is absolute garbage.

There are many, many substantiated reports of ideological cleansing by the NVA and Vietcong, that may have resulted in 100s of thousands of civilian casualties.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Flame4Ever

Lanny,

I just wanted to say that it is extremely rare to find somebody as informed as you about the situation in the Middle East as you are in Canada. I've seen far too many people being brainwashed by CNN that it's frustrating to discuss it with most people I meet.

I wanted to thank you for taking a wll thought out position on this matter. Personally, I'm not a big fan of Israel and have disliked them since they bombed my native land (Tunisia) in the 80s to destroy suspected PLO training camps.

While I dislike Israel, like you I flip flop over what happens in that area based on the actions of poth sides. I think you have reasonably argued why what Israel is doing right now is wrong in so many ways. It always pains me to here that a people who have suffered so much persecution can have so little regard for human life.

Aside from the people they have killed directly with their bombs, Israel will harm thousands more by destroying Lebanon's infrastructure and isolating Beirut.

Thank you for the kind words.

I try to learn as much as possible about the events that have the potential to shape our world. I also do my best to read between the lines and understand what information really matters. There are two sides to every story, and somewhere in bewteen the extremes is the truth. Sadly, I find people here in North America accept one side of the story as the gospel and fail to understand the other side of the story. The propagandists on the extreme right have managed to poison the zeitgeist and align it with the messages they hope to resonate within the echo chamber. It is this echo effect that we see the results of for the most part. I feel it is our responsibility to educate ourselves on the facts and not succumb to the mind numbing stupidity that is portrayed as truth in the media. Without trying to understand the whole story, we become just another nodding head in a sea of yes men who let the actions we are witnessing in the middle east take place.

[White Doors]

Oh god.. that post makes me ill.

Echo chamber? HAHAHAHA!!
Lanny, go watch loose change again and nod away will ya?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Thank you for the kind words.

I try to learn as much as possible about the events that have the potential to shape our world. I also do my best to read between the lines and understand what information really matters. There are two sides to every story, and somewhere in bewteen the extremes is the truth. Sadly, I find people here in North America accept one side of the story as the gospel and fail to understand the other side of the story. The propagandists on the extreme right have managed to poison the zeitgeist and align it with the messages they hope to resonate within the echo chamber. It is this echo effect that we see the results of for the most part. I feel it is our responsibility to educate ourselves on the facts and not succumb to the mind numbing stupidity that is portrayed as truth in the media. Without trying to understand the whole story, we become just another nodding head in a sea of yes men who let the actions we are witnessing in the middle east take place.

Theres your problem....you read between the lines and come up with a bunch of paranoid mumble jumble. But thats just my opinion.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

I think Israel is tired of it. They're tired of the suicide bombings and tired of the rockets flying into their territory and tired of the kidnappings. Tired of cafes full of kids exploding.

This is what Olmert said the other day: "Citizens of Israel, there are moments in the life of a nation, when it is compelled to look directly into the face of reality and say: no more," he said.

"We are fighting for the right to normal life, like any individual, like any people, like any country, like any state."


I happen to agree with him.

Too many people, especially in North America, get way too emotional about this situation, they spout off sounding like they want to kill anyone who does not agree with them. Why cant folks have a civilized discussion without going into name calling, swearing, put downs etc? Surely you dont think you come off sounding educated and informed when you act like a loose cannon.

We have to remember one thing. The suicide bombings, the rocket bombings, the invasions, forays, kidnappings, all of these things have not occurred in our backyard.

My father in law was forced to participate in World War II. He lived in Czechoslovakia at that time. Germany took over that country too, and like it or not, he was part of the Axis fighting against the Allies. He was on that mission that marched on foot all the way to Russia and back, in the middle of winter, over 4500 km. 90% of his unit was lost. When the war was over, he wanted better for his family and he emigrated to Canada, never lifting a gun again in his life. He found it very hard to talk about the war and what he had seen.

During the occupation of their home town, my mother in law and her sister lived in a vegetable pit for over 6 months. Otherwise the German soldiers raped most of the young women.

My father in law always said, until someone, or some group, or some country has occupied your country, until it has bombed your country, until it has demolished your home and possessions, until you have lost numerous family members, then you are immune to what goes on and can not come up with an accurate opinion.

We have not been witness to that on Canadian soil, how lucky we are. So we should be careful about voicing our opinions, and as Lanny has said, make informed decisions, not just listen to CNN.

Both sides involved in the current Middle East crisis have been witness to bombings, invasions and killings in their own country. And sometimes you have enough and you cant take anymore. I am sure if you talk to the average Dick or Jane in the streets, they all want peace, they all want a normal life, both sides would be willing to give concessions for peace.

But there are terrorists involved, not just average Dicks and Janes, you cant negotiate with them. They were brought up hating the so called enemy. And it takes generations to get rid of hate. There finally will come some colossal turning point, when both sides can take no more and then peace will be negotiated, sort of like what happened in Ireland a few years ago.

Children do not come into this world knowing how to hate. That is something that is acquired and learned in the family home. And when hate is learned that young, it is passed from one generation to the other. When will people start celebrating our differences instead of trying to make everyone else just like us? Many people are afraid of "different" , be it religion, ethnicity, sexuality, whatever, and quite often dont react well because they have not taken the time to find out what the difference involves. If we were all the same, the world would be one big pot of pureed pea soup!!! And if you are a parent, please, be careful what you say around your children. Dont let them be a witness to your hate of another nation or of another culture, just because you do. We all have to do our small part in stopping this cylce of hate, we all have to take our part in stopping the merry go round.

I just hope that it does not take another world war to be the colossal turning point in the current mess.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Theres your problem....you read between the lines and come up with a bunch of paranoid mumble jumble. But thats just my opinion.

Yeah, paranoid mumble jumble that just happens to make more sense than anything you've ever said. Keep swallowing what ever the media tells you, like the good little no-mind that you are. So what is the latest talking point this morning anyways?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by peter12

The US involvement in Vietnam was by no means a unilateral endeavour. They were there at the request of the South Vietnamese government, (ARVN suffered 200 000 dead and 500 000 casualties total during the war) and to blame the civilian casualties on the Americans is absolute garbage.

There are many, many substantiated reports of ideological cleansing by the NVA and Vietcong, that may have resulted in 100s of thousands of civilian casualties.

Well, we'll heartily agree to disagree. I'd contend that the US went into Vietnam to support (initially) French interests there, not Vietnamese. The US very clearly stated that they were preventing a dominoe effect of communism sweeping through South East Asia (the containment policy of which turned out to be a dud). And I also believe that you very much can blame most of the millions of deaths on the invading and occupying forces, the US being by far the most significant.

Did the bad guys win the Vietnam War? And if so, I presume those are the same 'terrorists' who run the country today, given that the regime is pretty much directly descended from Ho Chi Minh? I find it odd that US officials have open dialogue with this terrorist regime...

[spiteface]

More ppl dying. Did anybody watch the clip on CTV about the Elsaghirs last night?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Yeah, paranoid mumble jumble that just happens to make more sense than anything you've ever said. Keep swallowing what ever the media tells you, like the good little no-mind that you are. So what is the latest talking point this morning anyways?

Just so you know, I am privilaged to much more classified material than any media personel. So go ahead and make invalid claims.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Just so you know, I am privilaged to much more classified material than any media personel. So go ahead and make invalid claims.

Yeah, sure you are. Let me guess, you're a member of a gang too!

[Azure]

Originally Posted by spiteface

More ppl dying. Did anybody watch the clip on CTV about the Elsaghirs last night?

Yeah, sad.

Did you hear the story about the Arab children killed by Hezbollah rockets?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Things out of control?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5196800.stm

Exit of foreign nationals signals escalation?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197186.stm

War crimes charges coming on both sides?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197544.stm

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Yeah, sure you are. Let me guess, you're a member of a gang too!

Well I don't expect you to believe me since you are paranoid about everything in your life and apparently only believe people who are blood relatives of yours.

[Cube Inmate]

But Lanny...what do those articles really say when you read between the lines?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

But Lanny...what do those articles really say when you read between the lines?

The region is ****ed! Frankly, this is near the tipping point for spinning out of control. At least that's what I read. We'll have to let Jokenar tell us what his classified sources say.

[Cube Inmate]

Insightful Although...on this one thing, I'll finally agree with you.

The concept of "in control" is kind of lost already, though. If this thing settles down in the next couple of days/weeks...back to the status quo of (say) a couple of months ago...then things are still largely out of control. Hezbollah will still control S. Lebanon, and the "legitimate" leader of Lebanon has now come out and accused Israel of "cruel retaliation" or something to that effect. They're not going to be at a negotiating table anytime soon.

On the other hand, if this goes the distance and Israel invades and occupies Lebanon, it's even more out of control.

I.e./ "The region is ****ed!"

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

The region is ****ed! Frankly, this is near the tipping point for spinning out of control. At least that's what I read. We'll have to let Jokenar tell us what his classified sources say.

Ya well I am not going to lose my job and risk criminal charges by posting classified material to prove or disprove your points.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Maybe not them... but certainly the millions killed by American/South Vietnamese forces...

Geezus merphy.

Umm....Like the North Vietnamese and Pol Pot. You know, like St. Noam's favourite friends?

Those boat people weren't fleeing bad bodyodor.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Geezus merphy.

Umm....Like the North Vietnamese and Pol Pot. You know, like St. Noam's favourite friends?

Those boat people weren't fleeing bad bodyodor.

What the hell are you talking about? Boat people? Are you denying that US forces killed millions, or pointing out that the North also killed many?

As per the norm, your post is unintelligble.