Sutter is the problem

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

If Treliving leaves, we're probably just going to promote Conroy to GM. I'm one who thinks Treliving has done a great job and is probably in the top tier of GMs in the league, so at least Conroy has some great tutelage under him.

If not Conroy, then I'd look at Dubas if Treliving does end up in Toronto.

Conroy might be too nice to be a GM. I could see him getting too attached to players and not wanting to make difficult decisions. I don't know the guy personally obviously, but I wonder if he has the cold heart needed to trade players that really don't want to be traded, or demote players who may be on their last NHL chance.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

That appears to be a total mischaracterization of what actually occurred. Your hate for DS is clouding your comments badly.

MT wanted to be in the US and in a hazy, lazy place that paid him big time. JG wanted to keep his family and wife happy.

Neither had anything to do with DS as far as we know.

For Tkachuk I have heard from a pretty reliable source that DS and him didn't have a good relationship and that it was a factor in Tkachuk's decision (not the only reason but a factor). Recall there were also rumors near the end of the 2021 season that Tkachuk didn't like how Sutter treated him, and that he asked for a trade then. And Tkachuk made a lot of comments about "Maurice being the best coach he's ever played for" when he joined Florida that really came off as shots at Sutter.

Gaudreau I think it was less of a factor, but I have heard that Gaudreau didn't love playing for Sutter either and it was part of his consideration but not really a big part of the decision.

Now it's not like they were going to fire Sutter after winning the Jack Adams and the division that season, so I doubt the players were asking the Flames to do that. But it also doesn't sound like it was a great relationship either and clearly those guys didn't go "I really want to stay in Calgary to play for Sutter".

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Now it's not like they were going to fire Sutter after winning the Jack Adams and the division that season, so I doubt the players were asking the Flames to do that. But it also doesn't sound like it was a great relationship either and clearly those guys didn't go "I really want to stay in Calgary to play for Sutter".

It's a classic case of workers over-producing to make them more valuable to the organization, but in doing so they make the boss they want to strangle in his sleep appear equally as valuable and responsible. Of course the truth comes out when the real talent leaves and you're left with the incompetent idiot to run the business into the ground.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

I think he has the size and ability to hold and protect pucks I think that's why he wanted to be on the left.

He's not going to over power anyone and he was never a power forward but he wins lot of boards battles and plays strong along the walls. I think that is the issue is playing to close to the walls. He needs to play more free and back to his spots and yes turnovers will happens but I think 115 points makes up for those mistakes.

He also gets open but he isn't getting the puck.

His ice time has been chopped.

You used Kaprizov as an example and ignored what me and a few other posters pointed out. He is given more rope to play his game because he is counted on to produce and he also given the ice time to do it he's not some robot hoping over playing a 4 line rotation with 14 minutes a game.

Like I said he isn't getting the respect he deserves for his accomplishments. He wasn't getting ice time to start the season and he isn't now.

We got a star player excited to make an impact and it feels like as soon as the coach got him he started to break him down and to get in line.

This also goes back to last year when we apparently had no stars according to star but hey gave those players more rope.

What do all these buzzwords that you keep using even mean? They’re so non-specific that there’s almost no point in replying to them. It’s almost like a bunch of random words thrown in to create an argument and criticize without actually making a valid point.

“Play more free,” how is he unfree? “Get back to his spots,” where are these spots? “More rope,” in what way does Dean Evason give Kaprizov more rope? “Respect he deserves,” where and what kind of respect does Huberdeau deserve?

To answer the other questions, Huberdeau’s ice time has been chopped not because of the extra minute more that the 4th line averages, but more so the team’s 3rd line. Backlund’s line has eaten into the top 2 line’s minutes because they’ve easily the best and most consistent line of the entire season.

If the Lindholm and Kadri lines want more minutes, then they’re going to have to be more effective because Darryl plays lines that are going like most coaches do because it helps them win and that’s pretty much all Darryl cares about.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

For Tkachuk I have heard from a pretty reliable source that DS and him didn't have a good relationship and that it was a factor in Tkachuk's decision (not the only reason but a factor). Recall there were also rumors near the end of the 2021 season that Tkachuk didn't like how Sutter treated him, and that he asked for a trade then. And Tkachuk made a lot of comments about "Maurice being the best coach he's ever played for" when he joined Florida that really came off as shots at Sutter.

Gaudreau I think it was less of a factor, but I have heard that Gaudreau didn't love playing for Sutter either and it was part of his consideration but not really a big part of the decision.

Now it's not like they were going to fire Sutter after winning the Jack Adams and the division that season, so I doubt the players were asking the Flames to do that. But it also doesn't sound like it was a great relationship either and clearly those guys didn't go "I really want to stay in Calgary to play for Sutter".

Obviously this isn't surprising just the way Tkachuk has acted and acted during his time here. He was no fan of Sutter. I have also heard the same things from someone close to a few players that they do not like him at all especially Lindholm.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

What do all these buzzwords that you keep using even mean? They’re so non-specific that there’s almost no point in replying to them. It’s almost like a bunch of random words thrown in to create an argument and criticize without actually making a valid point.

“Play more free,” how is he unfree? “Get back to his spots,” where are these spots? “More rope,” in what way does Dean Evason give Kaprizov more rope? “Respect he deserves,” where and what kind of respect does Huberdeau deserve?

To answer the other questions, Huberdeau’s ice time has been chopped not because of the extra minute more that the 4th line averages, but more so the team’s 3rd line. Backlund’s line has eaten into the top 2 line’s minutes because they’ve easily the best and most consistent line of the entire season.

If the Lindholm and Kadri lines want more minutes, then they’re going to have to be more effective because Darryl plays lines that are going like most coaches do because it helps them win and that’s pretty much all Darryl cares about.

I think Huberdeau has earned a chance to play with a different centre. When he was with Lindholm before he was in the middle of learning a new system. Let them try playing together now.

As for your last paragraph. The deployment of the 4th line goes counter to playing the lines that are "on". Lucic gets his minutes no matter what.

The team is having trouble scoring, and Sutter's solution is to create a third PP unit to get the 4th line out there for the last 15-25 seconds.

Sutter sure spends a lot of time "sending messages" to his players. It's stupid and I think is an ego thing for him.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

I thought Huberdeau had a really good game, and Sutter have him 14:04 in regulation.

Good players will make mistakes trying to do crazy things. Sutter won't accept that, and so we see what long term Sutter hockey looks like. Spending the game trying not to make mistakes.

I thought Huberdeau and his line were pretty invisible for much of the 1st and 2nd, mostly due to Kadri’s play though which was just straight up bad. So the ice time was reflected. Kadri’s game has dropped off considerably from the start of the season, but the guy has a Stanley Cup for a reason. He plays with a ton of jam, is competitive and does most things well, his hockey IQ though is very questionable from time to time.

I don’t understand the Sutter doesn’t accept mistakes part of your post though. Are you saying he doesn’t accept mistakes in general or are you saying players aren’t allowed to make mistakes for fear of getting benched or something?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I thought Huberdeau and his line were pretty invisible for much of the 1st and 2nd, mostly due to Kadri’s play though which was just straight up bad. So the ice time was reflected. Kadri’s game has dropped off considerably from the start of the season, but the guy has a Stanley Cup for a reason. He plays with a ton of jam, is competitive and does most things well, his hockey IQ though is very questionable from time to time.

I don’t understand the Sutter doesn’t accept mistakes part of your post though. Are you saying he doesn’t accept mistakes in general or are you saying players aren’t allowed to make mistakes for fear of getting benched or something?

If you look at ice time game to game it really doesn't vary a whole lot. Sutter likes to even ES time out. That's about it.

[FlamesAddiction]

The ice-time is there if Huberdeau shows he deserves it. Sutter had no problem giving Gaudreau 20 minutes per game. He used to give Kopitar 21 minutes per game in L.A.

I haven't seen anything from Huberdeau that warrants more than what he is getting. Another 3-4 minutes of blind passes, being disorientated, and not shooting won't make the team better.

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The ice-time is there if Huberdeau shows he deserves it. Sutter had no problem giving Gaudreau 20 minutes per game. He used to give Kopitar 21 minutes per game in L.A.

I haven't seen anything from Huberdeau that warrants more than what he is getting. Another 3-4 minutes of blind passes, being disorientated, and not shooting won't make the team better.

He would get the ice time if his on ice play dictated it. People claiming that his minutes are the issue are not looking at his game critically. Even on overtime last night Steinberg was saying that apart from the late goal he had large lapses where he was invisible (certainly doesn't help that Kadri has been a train wreck as of late).

Brian Burke said it best, "your top players need to be your top players." It's just the reality of a cap world. Not going to win many games when your hear phrases such as "invisible" from your star player.

I also find it odd that in the game thread people were saying he was "fine" or had some "good passes" out of the zone. Is that what we have lowered the bar to? That it's okay to use words like "fine" and "oaky" to critique his game? For the salary he will command next year the word should be "elite."

Evidence is there that Sutter will play guys who are contributing. It happened with Johnny and Tkachuk and same with Kopitar. People complain here that the Flames motto is "Always given, never earned." Would that not apply to Huberdeau if Sutter decided to give him 20 minutes a night? What has he done to deserve that?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think Treliving is dumping the Flames.

When you put a team together that has most of the hockey world thinking you're a top five cup contender, as a GM you did your job ... especially given the exodus circumstances.

What happens from there is on the coach and the players.

I don’t think this is necessarily true. The hockey world is wrong all the time and a lot of these media guys don’t know squat about hockey, just take Eric Francis as an example. He’s got the same takes as drunk dudes I’ve talked to at a bar. National media aren’t that much better than fans IMO, they’re not dialed in to one specific team enough and all they see are the flashy names and make predictions from there.

When it comes to the specific decisions that Brad made though, I think he ultimately made a bad choice acquiring Huberdeau and Weegar and I’m not even saying this because it’s been a failure, I felt this way when the acquisitions were made. The styles of play that made Huberdeau and Weegar successful in Florida clashed greatly with the type of team team and system the Flames already had here and Treliving should’ve known that.

He built a Heavy checking team coupled with a coach who plays a tight checking style and thought it was a good idea to trade for two players, who played exact opposite style. That’s not good team/talent assessment.

Honestly, Treliving should’ve asked for Carter Verhaeghe instead. He caught my eye last year and I think he would’ve been a way better fit for this system, roster and coach. He’s on pace for 40 goals too, so he’s got some goal scoring touch.

[HighLifeMan]

You can't talk about earning icetime when plugs like Lucic are routinely eating up time, Ruzicka is consistently sitting and Coleman leads the team in five on five icetime. That's rich.

Andrew Mangiapane for example has averaged 18 minutes a night over the past 10 games and doesn't have a single point while being a -6. Likewise to Coleman who has 3 points in his past 15 games. These are the guy's eating up prime ice time and not performing when the team needs them.

You can't expect your best players to be your best players if they are not being afforded the opportunity to do so.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The ice-time is there if Huberdeau shows he deserves it. Sutter had no problem giving Gaudreau 20 minutes per game. He used to give Kopitar 21 minutes per game in L.A.

I haven't seen anything from Huberdeau that warrants more than what he is getting. Another 3-4 minutes of blind passes, being disorientated, and not shooting won't make the team better.

Johnny averaged just under 18.5 minutes per game under Sutter and Tkachuk just under 18 minutes a game. It's just the way Darryl rolls. The issue is that it's 2023 and when you are paying your top players near $10 million, those players need to get as much ice time as possible to maximize investment on the talent.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

I think Huberdeau has earned a chance to play with a different centre. When he was with Lindholm before he was in the middle of learning a new system. Let them try playing together now.

As for your last paragraph. The deployment of the 4th line goes counter to playing the lines that are "on". Lucic gets his minutes no matter what.

The team is having trouble scoring, and Sutter's solution is to create a third PP unit to get the 4th line out there for the last 15-25 seconds.

Sutter sure spends a lot of time "sending messages" to his players. It's stupid and I think is an ego thing for him.

Well the 4th line is going to get some minutes, every team has a 4th line and most of them usually play roughly 10 minutes give or take. No team should have a 3rd line that plays more minutes than the 1st and 2nd line though. But that is the case on this team because the top 2 lines haven't deserved the additional ice time. It's actually a case of Sutter playing lines that earned it.

As for the powerplay, I think it's just a lost cause at this point. They've tried just about everything and nothing has gained any traction. It might be that they have to find someone to add to make this thing tick sort of like Kevin Fiala whose helped turn the King's PP around completely (27th to 5th).

Finally as for Huberdeau, yeah sure, play him with whoever. The season is all but lost and he's played with everyone, so, I'd be open to anything.

[GioforPM]

Ice time and points are a vicious circle especially with a guy who IMO needs a lot of touches like Huberdeau.

I have a fair bit of confidence he will have a decent season next year, like Toffoli bounced back this year.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

You can't talk about earning icetime when plugs like Lucic are routinely eating up time, Ruzicka is consistently sitting and Coleman leads the team in five on five icetime. That's rich.

Andrew Mangiapane for example has averaged 18 minutes a night over the past 10 games and doesn't have a single point while being a -6. Likewise to Coleman who has 3 points in his past 15 games. These are the guy's eating up prime ice time and not performing when the team needs them.

You can't expect your best players to be your best players if they are not being afforded the opportunity to do so.

I love the people saying play harder to earn ice time like ffs go back to when the season started from game 1 the complaint has been why is Huberdeau getting plugger like ice time.

There is absolutley zero reason Lucic should be getting 10-12 minutes a game, he is a 5-6 minute player. Apparently he earns his ice time by being a plug taking 2 strides and gliding into the neutral zone.

Last night Huberdeau was on, it was a time to get him extra shifts get him with Lindy and Toff instead we got Lucic. Huberdeau had 13 minutes of ice time and Lucic 11. The very last shift of the game Huberdeau and Lindholm out and Huberdeau gives him a great pass and he chases down the rebound but we ran out of time and Sutter said it was our best chance of the game and too late.

Yeah it was too late because the guy making those choices was too late.

Its evident he trying to stick it to the player.

Thats like paying someone 100K and asking them to do a job that takes 8 hours in 3 hours but blast them for not getting results in those 3 hours.

[btimbit]

I love Sutter but there's no denying that the amount of ice Lucic gets is just absurd

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

You can't talk about earning icetime when plugs like Lucic are routinely eating up time, Ruzicka is consistently sitting and Coleman leads the team in five on five icetime. That's rich.

Andrew Mangiapane for example has averaged 18 minutes a night over the past 10 games and doesn't have a single point while being a -6. Likewise to Coleman who has 3 points in his past 15 games. These are the guy's eating up prime ice time and not performing when the team needs them.

You can't expect your best players to be your best players if they are not being afforded the opportunity to do so.

Absolutely. It's pretty clear by now that Sutter plays favorites and meritocracy for him applies differently from player to player. Huberdeau would have to be superhuman just to see the same leniency as Mangi and Lucic are afforded. Meanwhile those guys can coast and they don't see their deployment change much

Mangiapane probably shouldn't be getting 18 minutes with his lack of contribution at the most important time of the year with the season on the line. He hasn't contributed offensively in weeks. While huberdeau is obviously heating up but isn't seeing an increase in usage..

I really think Sutter can do a while lot more on the bench management front to try to get the best result for his team, he just doesn't.

Which is mystifying because I'm sure he got paid handsomely to come out of retirement.

If it weren't for the ownership relationship, I'd say he's worked himself out of the head coaching job here given everything and the results on the ice. That armour is coming at the expense of the season.

Just doesn't strike me as a guy bringing his best to the table. He's riding by on his past accomplishments at this point.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The ice-time is there if Huberdeau shows he deserves it. Sutter had no problem giving Gaudreau 20 minutes per game. He used to give Kopitar 21 minutes per game in L.A.

I haven't seen anything from Huberdeau that warrants more than what he is getting. Another 3-4 minutes of blind passes, being disorientated, and not shooting won't make the team better.

This is where I am at too. I am convinced he has got more to give but won't bring it out for this coach, which is concerning. If you are not scoring you have to bring some other intangibles. If they supposingly did end up getting rid of the coach, what happens if few guys don't like the next coach? Sutter on the other hand needs to take a good step back and change his approach and relationship with the players. It is like he wants to take the short route to success but maybe that is unrealistic with the makeup of this team. Sutter doesn’t have the horses so he should back up and give e them some room until he has the right players to push for some success.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If you look at ice time game to game it really doesn't vary a whole lot. Sutter likes to even ES time out. That's about it.

Sure, but the 3rd line getting the most ice time is unusual for any team. It's really an indictment on the top 6's failure to be a consistently effective presence from game to game, you honestly have no idea what to expect from any of them no matter who they play. Last season, the 3rd line didn't get anything close to what the current 3rd line is getting this season.

Personally, I don't even think the ice time situation is as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be. Huberdeau is getting about 1 minute 18 seconds on average less than Tkachuk did last season and Matthew had 104 points. If Huberdeau was playing better, I'm sure his minutes would get up pretty close to what the 1st line received last season.