[News] CSEC and City of Calgary agree to restart formal discussions on new arena

[Jason14h]

Wait until some of your hear about the tax breaks companies get to put offices in major cities !

The NHL has a scarce product - 32 teams . Cities compete for these 32 teams, via a variety of factors - but mostly ability to generate profit - which a new arena contributes too

Sure each team could finance and pay for their own arena , but then one city without a team who wants one offers a free arena ! Guess what - a lot of teams are then competing to take the free arena Vs paying for their own

If you think the Flames owners will finance their own arena when other cities will finance one for them you are out of your minds and they will leave

Bettman doesn’t like teams moving for a variety of reasons - mostly because it diminishes future ability to sell expansion teams - but if the Flames and the city can’t come to an eventual agreement they will leave

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Wait until some of your hear about the tax breaks companies get to put offices in major cities !

The NHL has a scarce product - 32 teams . Cities compete for these 32 teams, via a variety of factors - but mostly ability to generate profit - which a new arena contributes too

Sure each team could finance and pay for their own arena , but then one city without a team who wants one offers a free arena ! Guess what - a lot of teams are then competing to take the free arena Vs paying for their own

If you think the Flames owners will finance their own arena when other cities will finance one for them you are out of your minds and they will leave

Bettman doesn’t like teams moving for a variety of reasons - mostly because it diminishes future ability to sell expansion teams - but if the Flames and the city can’t come to an eventual agreement they will leave

It's not as simple as there are 32 available teams ready to move at the drop of a hate if their municipality pisses them off. Do you really see the Rangers or Leafs moving? Canucks? Habs?

Do you think even if Kansas City built a new arena with taxpayer money, that team would earn more money than the Flames in Calgary would? Don't the Panthers have a sweetheart arena deal with Miami? How much money do they make?

I think the relocation threats are empty.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Do you think even if Kansas City built a new arena with taxpayer money, that team would earn more money than the Flames in Calgary would?

Kansas City did build a new arena with taxpayer money.

The funny thing is, when the Vegas and Seattle expansion talks started, someone asked one of the insiders (I think Friedman) how come we weren't hearing KC's name as a potential expansion target, and he said it was because the city has basically decided they're better off not having a major league tenant in the building. It's better for them to run the building themselves and keeping the money it generates.

When the new building first opened, a bunch of NHL and NBA teams did the whole tour of KC thing to threaten their existing cities into building them new arenas (the Penguins and Islanders both did it, as did Sacramento in the NBA, and possibly a few more), and the city got mad at being used by teams who were never serious about moving there.

Ultimately, the building opened without a major league tenant and quickly became a high-demand concert venue and a good spot for one-off sporting events like the Big-12 Basketball tournament.

Other than paying AEG a building management fee, the city gets all of the money generated from these events... and the public parking lots around the arena. If an NHL or NBA team moved in, they would want all of that money for themselves (and not just from their own games, but the concerts and other events as well). As it stands, the city is fine not having a major league team in the arena because the events actually generate money for the city, which help pay off the construction costs of the building.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

so are their shovel's in the ground today

Yes. One party is digging up their back yard looking for where they stashed some gold coins. The other is digging theirs looking for oil.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

It's not as simple as there are 32 available teams ready to move at the drop of a hate if their municipality pisses them off. Do you really see the Rangers or Leafs moving? Canucks? Habs?

…

I think the relocation threats are empty.

Youre actually helping the scarcity argument . There aren’t actually 32 teams who would ever move (and it’s the reason those cities have more leverage to force owners to pay more % of arenas because they are high revenue cities)

The Flames owners would 100% make more money with a new free Arena somewhere else collecting US dollars then staying in Calgary and paying 500$ million for a new arena

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Wait until some of your hear about the tax breaks companies get to put offices in major cities !

The NHL has a scarce product - 32 teams . Cities compete for these 32 teams, via a variety of factors - but mostly ability to generate profit - which a new arena contributes too

Sure each team could finance and pay for their own arena , but then one city without a team who wants one offers a free arena ! Guess what - a lot of teams are then competing to take the free arena Vs paying for their own

If you think the Flames owners will finance their own arena when other cities will finance one for them you are out of your minds and they will leave

Bettman doesn’t like teams moving for a variety of reasons - mostly because it diminishes future ability to sell expansion teams - but if the Flames and the city can’t come to an eventual agreement they will leave

Then we'll take the Coyotes after they draft Bedard

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Youre actually helping the scarcity argument . There aren’t actually 32 teams who would ever move (and it’s the reason those cities have more leverage to force owners to pay more % of arenas because they are high revenue cities)

The Flames owners would 100% make more money with a new free Arena somewhere else collecting US dollars then staying in Calgary and paying 500$ million for a new arena

Oh sweet a pro sports market strategist, with that impeccable business acumen.

Which market(s), would the Edwards’ et all find?… that betters their current environment



* Strong business community, for selling more private suites than present.
* The absolute #1 sports draw in town, without any sort of threat. (NFL, NBA, MLB, NCAA etc)
* Passionate hockey fan base, wanton for a club.
* A civic environment with an arena ready, or gung-go to approve one
* A keen ownership group that wants NHL hockey in their city
* Citizens with a higher than average disposable income like they enjoy now.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Oh sweet a pro sports market strategist, with that impeccable business acumen.

Which market(s), would the Edwards’ et all find?… that betters their current environment



* Strong business community, for selling more private suites than present.
* The absolute #1 sports draw in town, without any sort of threat. (NFL, NBA, MLB, NCAA etc)
* Passionate hockey fan base, wanton for a club.
* A civic environment with an arena ready, or gung-go to approve one
* A keen ownership group that wants NHL hockey in their city
* Citizens with a higher than average disposable income like they enjoy now.

The Market doesn't have to be 'better' - It just has to pay the $500 million for the arena. The Flames would never make up the difference in that cost with revenue staying in Calgary.

The Calgary Flames are estimated to have a net worth of 855M

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeoza...h=4e03941a7deb

They collect their revenue in CAD, have a bottom 1/4 of the league average ticket price, have the oldest stadium with limited revenue generation, and sit middle of the pack for attendance this year.

They aren't leaving tomorrow, next season, or in the next 5. However, they will 100% be gone if the city isn't subsidizing an arena. They will not spend $500 million $ of their money on an arena in the Calgary market. They would never get the ROI vs just leaving or selling the franchise to another US market.

They could have attendance around 17000 in USD and make the same gate revenue. 14000 would put them in the bottom 3 of attendance, and they would make the same revenue in USD as they do now... Let that sink in. And that doesnt even include more luxury boxes, etc

Their ticket prices are already near the bottom of the league, so it isnt like they are charging a premium either in Calgary.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9179433/n...city-rankings/

So where would the Flames find a city where they could be middle of the league in attendance, earn revenue in USD dollars, while charging bottom quarter of the league ticket prices and not have to pay 500Million$ to break even to their current situation?

I don't think it is close to as hard as you think

[GreenLantern2814]

The owners could move the team to Houston tomorrow and make way more money. I don’t care how “passionate” we are about the team, we’re a market of 1.2M people with zero reach beyond our immediate geography.

The Houston metro area is 7M people.

They’d do it tomorrow if they weren’t from around here.

Make no mistake, the Calgary Flames are a luxury entertainment product (one of the things you need to keep high-value corporate entities in your city).

The city needs a new arena. For all kinds of different reasons, not just for the Flames, or the events.

An arena that hosts thousands of people a night for entertainment events year round needs to be structurally sound. It needs to have not been flooded with river water up to row 12.

We have neither. (It’s truly ridiculous this wasn’t fast-tracked in 2013 - how do you allow a flooded-out building like that function at full capacity indefinitely?)

Anyway.

The Flames special because they’re ours. Because they won a Stanley Cup in the era of the Gretzky Oilers. Because it was in.

Like, I don’t know how much of a tax increase this is meant to result in. Is it $5? A hundred?

Honestly, who cares.

People who are opposed to the arena never have a better idea for the money. It’s never “don’t build the arena, triple the snow removal capacity”. It’s just “do nothing”.

It’s just, do nothing. Don’t raise my taxes. I don’t care about the Flames.

Well, there’s 270 days of the year when the Flames and their properties aren’t in the arena.

Which means it can be used for basically anything else.

Something you might have interest in.

One of the many musical acts who never come here because the Saddledome doesn’t support their elaborate stages, perhaps.

And if you’re going to say “I’m not interested in going to any concerts, trade shows, performances, forums, assemblies or anything that could possibly take place in an arena and have no desire for any of my fellow Calgarians to be able to do so in a structure that honest to God could collapse at a moment’s notice,” maybe city life just isn’t for you. Maybe just #### off to Vulcan or someplace even more non-descript, if all you want is to pay no taxes and do nothing.

If the Saddledome is a car, it’s rusted out, missing a mirror, the suspension is shot, oil has been leaking for actual years, the heater doesn’t work, and all four tires are different.

And even though, yes, it does technically run, when you’re honest with yourself, it’s embarrassing to be seen in it.

Quit being ####in cheap and buy a new arena already.

[powderjunkie]

Except they'd be tenants in that arena. And that pesky 9 figure relocation fee. And the BOG approval.

Nevermind the fact that Phoenix is a fairly similar situation, and that has amounted to jack squat (5M compared to 6.7M metro pops, but at what point does a super sprawled area even matter?)

I suppose the one thing this franchise has going for it is that they also have a young Mike Modano 2.0 and will be instant contenders, so how could a huge Texas city not fall in love with them?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Youre actually helping the scarcity argument . There aren’t actually 32 teams who would ever move (and it’s the reason those cities have more leverage to force owners to pay more % of arenas because they are high revenue cities)

The Flames owners would 100% make more money with a new free Arena somewhere else collecting US dollars then staying in Calgary and paying 500$ million for a new arena

JC, the Flames are not going anywhere. Discuss the arena news, not something that isn't reality.

[Vinny01]

You have a city that is willing to partner on a new arena deal and a fanbase that will sell out a new rink every game. This team is not moving and if they did there would be another owner who would do the deal with the city and make it happen.

It is not like the city is telling the team they need to pay for the entire rink. There is a deal to be made. This team is going nowhere.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

The owners could move the team to Houston tomorrow and make way more money. I don’t care how “passionate” we are about the team, we’re a market of 1.2M people with zero reach beyond our immediate geography.

The Houston metro area is 7M people.

They’d do it tomorrow if they weren’t from around here.

Make no mistake, the Calgary Flames are a luxury entertainment product (one of the things you need to keep high-value corporate entities in your city).

The city needs a new arena. For all kinds of different reasons, not just for the Flames, or the events.

An arena that hosts thousands of people a night for entertainment events year round needs to be structurally sound. It needs to have not been flooded with river water up to row 12.

We have neither. (It’s truly ridiculous this wasn’t fast-tracked in 2013 - how do you allow a flooded-out building like that function at full capacity indefinitely?)

Anyway.

The Flames special because they’re ours. Because they won a Stanley Cup in the era of the Gretzky Oilers. Because it was in.

Like, I don’t know how much of a tax increase this is meant to result in. Is it $5? A hundred?

Honestly, who cares.

People who are opposed to the arena never have a better idea for the money. It’s never “don’t build the arena, triple the snow removal capacity”. It’s just “do nothing”.

It’s just, do nothing. Don’t raise my taxes. I don’t care about the Flames.

Well, there’s 270 days of the year when the Flames and their properties aren’t in the arena.

Which means it can be used for basically anything else.

Something you might have interest in.

One of the many musical acts who never come here because the Saddledome doesn’t support their elaborate stages, perhaps.

And if you’re going to say “I’m not interested in going to any concerts, trade shows, performances, forums, assemblies or anything that could possibly take place in an arena and have no desire for any of my fellow Calgarians to be able to do so in a structure that honest to God could collapse at a moment’s notice,” maybe city life just isn’t for you. Maybe just #### off to Vulcan or someplace even more non-descript, if all you want is to pay no taxes and do nothing.

If the Saddledome is a car, it’s rusted out, missing a mirror, the suspension is shot, oil has been leaking for actual years, the heater doesn’t work, and all four tires are different.

And even though, yes, it does technically run, when you’re honest with yourself, it’s embarrassing to be seen in it.

Quit being ####in cheap and buy a new arena already.

The Houston argument reara its head again. There is no arena for the Flames owners in Houston, time to stop worrying about that one.

Maybe if they want to sell the team this becomes a possibility. Even then, Fertitta has the arena in Houston and from what I hear, he’s not interested in owning a hockey team.

[Locke]

I'm telling you though...relocation is all the rage.

I'm still 100% onboard Team 'Decommissioned Aircraft Carrier in the Pacific.'

Think about all you could do with an ice rink and NHL team in International Waters!

Sure, attendance would suffer, but you're also essentially running your own airport! The possibilities are endless!

If they dont like it you just sail off somewhere else!

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

The owners could move the team to Houston tomorrow and make way more money. I don’t care how “passionate” we are about the team, we’re a market of 1.2M people with zero reach beyond our immediate geography.

The Houston metro area is 7M people.

They’d do it tomorrow if they weren’t from around here.

Make no mistake, the Calgary Flames are a luxury entertainment product (one of the things you need to keep high-value corporate entities in your city).

The city needs a new arena. For all kinds of different reasons, not just for the Flames, or the events.

An arena that hosts thousands of people a night for entertainment events year round needs to be structurally sound. It needs to have not been flooded with river water up to row 12.

We have neither. (It’s truly ridiculous this wasn’t fast-tracked in 2013 - how do you allow a flooded-out building like that function at full capacity indefinitely?)

Anyway.

The Flames special because they’re ours. Because they won a Stanley Cup in the era of the Gretzky Oilers. Because it was in.

Like, I don’t know how much of a tax increase this is meant to result in. Is it $5? A hundred?

Honestly, who cares.

People who are opposed to the arena never have a better idea for the money. It’s never “don’t build the arena, triple the snow removal capacity”. It’s just “do nothing”.

It’s just, do nothing. Don’t raise my taxes. I don’t care about the Flames.

Well, there’s 270 days of the year when the Flames and their properties aren’t in the arena.

Which means it can be used for basically anything else.

Something you might have interest in.

One of the many musical acts who never come here because the Saddledome doesn’t support their elaborate stages, perhaps.

And if you’re going to say “I’m not interested in going to any concerts, trade shows, performances, forums, assemblies or anything that could possibly take place in an arena and have no desire for any of my fellow Calgarians to be able to do so in a structure that honest to God could collapse at a moment’s notice,” maybe city life just isn’t for you. Maybe just #### off to Vulcan or someplace even more non-descript, if all you want is to pay no taxes and do nothing.

If the Saddledome is a car, it’s rusted out, missing a mirror, the suspension is shot, oil has been leaking for actual years, the heater doesn’t work, and all four tires are different.

And even though, yes, it does technically run, when you’re honest with yourself, it’s embarrassing to be seen in it.

Quit being ####in cheap and buy a new arena already.

Rick Bell, is that you?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Wait until some of your hear about the tax breaks companies get to put offices in major cities !

The NHL has a scarce product - 32 teams . Cities compete for these 32 teams, via a variety of factors - but mostly ability to generate profit - which a new arena contributes too

Sure each team could finance and pay for their own arena , but then one city without a team who wants one offers a free arena ! Guess what - a lot of teams are then competing to take the free arena Vs paying for their own

If you think the Flames owners will finance their own arena when other cities will finance one for them you are out of your minds and they will leave

Bettman doesn’t like teams moving for a variety of reasons - mostly because it diminishes future ability to sell expansion teams - but if the Flames and the city can’t come to an eventual agreement they will leave

Without an NHL team contributing around 50%, the city would have to decide not to have an arena, or pay for 100% of it.

I get it if some people don't want any public funs going to a facility like an arena, but there are a lot of cities that would love to have a new arena and partner to pay for half of it.

[Wormius]

Anyone who wants public funds for this arena knows what they need to do for support: 2 tickets to any event per tax payer and we call it even.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

And if you’re going to say “I’m not interested in going to any concerts, trade shows, performances, forums, assemblies or anything that could possibly take place in an arena and have no desire for any of my fellow Calgarians to be able to do so in a structure that honest to God could collapse at a moment’s notice,” maybe city life just isn’t for you. Maybe just #### off to Vulcan or someplace even more non-descript, if all you want is to pay no taxes and do nothing.

The rest of this emotion-driven nonsense aside, this paragraph is another perfect example of just how dishonest the pro-arena side can be, when I really really don’t think you have to be.

Concerts? We have dozens of concert venues, and if we’re looking for the biggest of the biggest, we could probably build an epic concert hall and have more control of it for less.

Trade shows? Thankfully we have the newly renovated BMO, the TELUS convention centre, the Big Four building, etc.

Performances? See concerts.

Forums? …this isn’t ancient Greece, I don’t think we need to spend a half billion on a place to hold “forums”

Assemblies? I haven’t been to an assembly since High School. Do you go to a lot of assemblies?

We have a lot of venues for a lot of different things. We even have a lot of great venues for a lot of different things. We don’t need a new stadium for concerts, trade shows, conventions, rodeos, or whatever. If you want bands to hit us on their stadium tour then I… guess? you could build a stadium? and hope that’s enough? or maybe build an epic concert hall that every band wants to play at?

In reality, we need a new arena if we want to keep an NHL team. That’s it. We can get everything else other ways, so let’s not pretend anything else is the selling point. You want the Flames? You need an arena (eventually). That’s a strong enough selling point, or it isnt, but trying to mask what it’s about doesn’t make it stronger.

But maybe the answer isn’t people who don’t want an arena ####ing off to Vulcan. Maybe it’s people who want to watch NHL hockey live at all costs ####ing off to Edmonton? Or it’s neither, which is far more likely.

Whatever the answer is, telling people to #### off and quit being cheap, and treating them like they’re stupid by telling them we need a stadium or we won’t be able to attend forums is an absurd approach.

[dino7c]

Concerts is fair...not all acts are equal. Calgary certainly misses out on concerts because of the lack of quality large venues. Also although the dome gets some of these big shows it's still costs money to keep the lights on. Also it won't last forever. Even if the Flames left Calgary would be paying to keep the dome up and running and eventually would build a new large arena.

[topfiverecords]

Won’t somebody think of the monster truck rallies?