[PGT] Anemic offense, Flames lose 2-1

[SuperMatt18]

I don’t think this is that hard to break apart why the Flames are struggling in the playoffs.

1) The coaching staff for back to back playoffs hasn’t figured out a game plan / break out / lines to slow down a fast, heavy team that can forecheck. Sure the head coach may be technically different but overall it’s the same staff. Gaudreau and Monahan (And 3/4 forward lines) have not worked in the playoffs - Try something different .

Tkachuk - Backlund - Lindholm : Best 200 ft line
Lucic - Bennett - Gaudreau : Size and speed to open up room for 13
Dube - Monahan - Reider : Speed and tenacity on 23’s wing
Mangiapane - Ryan - Janko: Mangiapane and Ryan have great chemistry

Doesn’t that lineup seem much more balanced that what we’ve seen?

2) Our top 4 forwards haven’t been able to score at 5v5

At 5v5 during the regular season Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Tkachuk average:

3.5 Goals/60
30.2 Shots/60
14.2 HDCF/60
11.6% Shooting Percentage

In the playoffs those same players have averaged

1.05 Goals/60
24.8 Shots/60
9.1 HDCF/60
4.2% Shooting Percentage

Scoring has just dried up from those 4 come playoff time. Part of it is a low shooting percentage but they haven’t been able to generate as many chances or gotten to high danger areas.

3) And to my earlier point in this thread, the team isn’t fast enough or big/gritty enough so they get overwhelmed physically. Come playoff time you just need some guys that’s physical skill set is overwhelming, and outside of Lucic, Dube, Bennett we just don’t have that.

Once we get to this offseason the priorities should be 1) Hire an Elite coach, 2) Shake up the top 4 forwards, 3) Add more speedy grit to our bottom 6

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by united

Big shift in tactics from coach Ward tonight with Monahan and Gaudreau getting 7 offensive zone starts and 0 (!!!) defensive zone starts. They were on the ice for 1 faceoff in the defensive zone which was after an icing but that's it. They were also out for just 2 neutral zone faceoffs.

Coach Ward put the struggling duo in the best position to find offensive success as he possibly could and they still got #### all done. These two are going through some kind of funk (Lindholm too). Unreal. Not much else you can do or say.

Gaudreau: 16 attempts for and 16 against (50%) with an xG of 0.4 for and 0.47 against (46%).
Monahan: 17 attempts for and 21 against (45%) with an xG of 0.43 for and 0.57 against (43%).

Ward coaching equivalent of waving the white flag.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I don’t think this is that hard to break apart why the Flames are struggling in the playoffs.

1) The coaching staff for back to back playoffs hasn’t figured out a game plan to slow down a fast, heavy team that can forecheck. Sure the head coach may be technically different but overall it’s the same staff.

2) Our top 4 forwards haven’t been able to score at 5v5

At 5v5 during the regular season Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Tkachuk average:

3.5 Goals/60
30.2 Shots/60
14.2 HDCF/60
11.6% Shooting Percentage

In the playoffs those same players have averaged

1.05 Goals/60
24.8 Shots/60
9.1 HDCF/60
4.2% Shooting Percentage

Scoring has just dried up from those 4 come playoff time and they haven’t been able to generate as many chances.

3) And to my earlier point in this thread, the team isn’t fast enough or big/gritty enough so they get overwhelmed physically. Come playoff time you just need some guys that’s physical skill set is overwhelming, and outside of Lucic, Dube, Bennett we just don’t have that.

Once we get to this offseason the priorities should be 1) Hire an Elite coach, 2) Shake up the top 4 forwards, 3) Add more speedy grit to our bottom 6

Unfortunately you've got 2 departing bottom pairing dmen, 2 departing top 4 Dmen, a 37 year old guy making top pairing money but probably not giving you top pairing minutes reliably and already not enough skill in the top 6.

Also you need to sign your 33 year old goalie or hit the bricks to bring in an unknown free agent.

What on this roster is worth salvaging to try to be competitive in the short term? If we're really honest with ourselves, is it even possible?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Unfortunately you've got 2 departing bottom pairing dmen, 2 departing top 4 Dmen, a 37 year old guy making top pairing money but probably not giving you top pairing minutes reliably and already not enough skill in the top 6.

Also you need to sign your 33 year old goalie or hit the bricks to bring in an unknown free agent.

What on this roster is worth salvaging to try to be competitive in the short term? If we're really honest with ourselves, is it even possible?

I don’t think the roster is in as bad shape as people think. There are pieces there for a 1-2 year re-tool. I look at the expansion draft list as the guidelines:

Forwards:

Move Forward Pieces: Tkachuk, Lindholm, Dube, Mangiapane, Bennett,
Trade Options: Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund
Vets Unlikely to Move: Lucic, Ryan
UFA: Reider,
Prospects: Pelletier, Gawdin, Phillips, Zavgorodniy

Really that’s not that bad, they have 5/7 expansion spots filled, potentially 6 if Hall’s top choice is Calgary as rumoured. If you can get some strong, expansion exempt young pieces for Gaudreau and Monahan then you’re in good shape, and we already have some okay forward prospects on the way to fill the bottom of the lineup.

Defense:

Move Forward Pieces: Hanifin, Andersson, Valimaki, Kylington
Vets Unlikely to Move: Giordano
UFA: Brodie, Gustafson, Hamonic, Forbort, Stone
Prospects: Yelesin, Kinnvall

Honestly I don’t think the UFAs on defense are a bad thing here. Rebuild with 4 young guys we have and make some budget UFA signings like a Demelo as a stopgap.

Expansion draft punishes you for depth on defense here anyways, so no use to spend major cap /assets to add to that core this offseason unless the piece is expansion exempt.

Goalie:

Honestly a tandem of Talbot and Rittich isn’t that bad, and Talbots probably not going to demand too much of a raise.

Goaltending is weird and inconsistent season to season and the guys we have, have not hurt us. Don’t waste anymore major assets / cap space because you just never know what you’re going to get.

Look at last years cup winning Sweetheart, who has been benched in round 1 this year, and the $10M big name UFA was the worst starter in the league.

There is a path to a re-tool there. Use next year as a transition year, change the make up of the top 6 a bit, try to add more youth, and aim to make a push after the expansion draft.

[zamler]

Lucic has been worth this money never thought I'd say that.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

The biggest problem is that the guys who make the most money on this team don’t put up even close to a point per game at even strength in the playoffs...

Mediocre franchise is mediocre...


But hey! The blues won a cup after ~50 years of futility so maybe we can too one day...


But this group ain’t it.

Tkachuk is career 5pts in 15 games and everyone thinks he’s the saviour? That’s pathetic playoff output for a guy who prides himself on that (and I will happily eat those words if he improves as sample size increases) Johnny and mony should be packaged off to Florida or somewhere where they love regular season hockey, gio has lost a step or two but I get keeping him around for sentimental reasons, and we pay all our depth too much. I guess if Benny and looch keep playing like this then the salaries combined seems fair, and dube and mange seem good.

Scary how little size we have.

We tried big and tough with Darryl in 06-09 then we tried small and fast 17-20.

Not sure what the answer is but this ain’t it.

I don’t think winning a series changes this, but imagine if we had Kadri / Stone?


/rant

Quick fact check.

Out of the top scorers in the league, one player, Panarin, had over one even strength points per game with 71 in 69 games.

That’s it.

[united]

Some quick series numbers grabbed from Natural Stat Trick and Evolving Hockey for the ten forwards who have played in all five games. Icing-for induced faceoffs removed for coaching context.

Rank in brackets.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by browna

Would've been sooner but the Flames weren't a game away from potentially being eliminated vs the Jets.

I get that everyone wants to be first to espout their theories and write eulogies and be the "I told you so", but there is 3 to 4 months of that ahead, whether they are done Thursday or come back this series and are done in September.

Nah, don't be like that, my "I told you Sos" came last offseason.

I still think the Flames can win this series.

Dallas is playing knowing their starter isn't healthy enough to practice while Talbot is playing all-world and Gaudreau can steal you a series.

It's a lot less likely without a healthy Tkachuk in the lineup but it's still possible.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by united

Some quick series numbers grabbed from Natural Stat Trick and Evolving Hockey for the ten forwards who have played in all five games. Icing-for induced faceoffs removed for coaching context.

Rank in brackets.

You posted before that Gaudreau and Monahan had all their zone starts in the offensive zone last game.

Who had their zone starts cut to compensate for that? Lucic/Bennett?

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Agreed, I thought Johnny was quite good today

Rinaldo, though... talk about not suited for playoff hockey. What exactly would you say he does? Because I have no idea.

What ? I thought Rinaldo was actually good. He did his job and hit everything he could. The fourth libe was all around good. He was doing what the 3rd line seems to have stopped doing.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Flame On

I don't think Gudreau is a bum at all I think he's just too small and his linemates don't have either a, the grit, or b, the skill to compensate. I'm way more annoyed with Monahan and Lindholm.

What? Johnny's the only one that can't take or make a hit . Monahan and Lindholm have been fine defensively. Hard to play and offensive game when your top lw keeps tossing the puck away to every sound of ice being chipped by skates. Johnny gaudreau is that lines weakest link by a mile Monahan has been board battling, skated back and made strong defensive plays same as lindholm. AMonahans usually battling in the slot and Lindholm doea all the heavy lifting along boards. Johnny Gaudreau takes perimeter low along the board shots, ####ty wristers to the chest or passes the puck like a gernade as soon as a player takes a stride or two mear him.

He was great for a couple of seasons when guys gave him space but thats not him anymore. The teams just jave to advance on him knowing he will gernade the puck and its working year in year out now.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by AC

Kent Wilson put out an advanced stats deep-dive about how Gaudreau has actually just been unlucky in the playoffs whereas Bennett has been lucky.

Cut to these playoffs where Bennett has once again been our best player essentially every single game, and Gaudreau has no-showed.

So gaudreau is soft .. in non pc terms he's just a #####. Tough guys win in playoffs and johnny in my eyes are softer than Nathan gerbe. I.posted over a dozen players his size or shorter that can play a beter tougher game and still manage aroud his point average.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by zamler

Lucic has been worth this money never thought I'd say that.

That’s because he gives a damn. He’s earned every penny of that contract after the playoffs he has had. Let’s see if he, Bennett, and Dube can continue clicking in the 20/21 season.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Odd flex...Caps are going to lose in the first round to an underdog...likely in a short series

You are correct that even good teams sometimes lose in the first round.

And if the Flames had recently won the Stanley Cup, I think people’s reactions might be different.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by zamler

Lucic has been worth this money never thought I'd say that.

While he has played okay in a 3rd line role it's a big stretch to say he's worth the $5.25 million the Flames are paying him or the $6 million he takes up in cap space. If he was making maybe $3 million I supposed you could say he was earning his money.

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I'd take getting swept if it means having a Stanley Cup.



A single run in 2004 is the only time this franchise has been relevant since the Reagan administration.

Bush Sr Administration

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[BigBrodieFan]

I like Johnny, he’s a good kid, but he’s scared to get hurt. That’s the issue. He’s probably never going to be what he was when he started with Calgary because the young, fearless goal scorer has been hurt, picked on, or tossed around too many times. He carries the puck like a hot potato and gives it up most of the time when he faces pressure. Once in awhile he will show a flash of brilliance from ‘when he was good’ and the fans get nostalgic and hope for ‘that’ Johnny to come back. It’s not going to happen. He’s too small and too frail. His playing time should have been limited a long time ago, and at this point any player on his line is going to struggle with him on it.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

What? Johnny's the only one that can't take or make a hit . Monahan and Lindholm have been fine defensively. Hard to play and offensive game when your top lw keeps tossing the puck away to every sound of ice being chipped by skates. Johnny gaudreau is that lines weakest link by a mile Monahan has been board battling, skated back and made strong defensive plays same as lindholm. AMonahans usually battling in the slot and Lindholm doea all the heavy lifting along boards. Johnny Gaudreau takes perimeter low along the board shots, ####ty wristers to the chest or passes the puck like a gernade as soon as a player takes a stride or two mear him.

He was great for a couple of seasons when guys gave him space but thats not him anymore. The teams just jave to advance on him knowing he will gernade the puck and its working year in year out now.

Lol, Monahan has absolutely not battled on the boards and has avoided the front of the net like the plague resides there. I get the narrative on here is to attack Gaudreau but he has actually been much more engaged than Monahan.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

We're gonna waste another season with a goalie going god-mode in the playoffs, aren't we?

Also, WTB...#1 line.

So disappointing. It just...feels and looks like unless your name is Talbot or Lucic, there are no Give a Fu**'s among the entire team.

I think lines 2-4 are doing more than enough to win this series...that's just not enough in the playoffs against the 3 seed.

The book is certainly out on our top line: The complete lack of anything from Monahan at the center position aside from slamming home the odd 2 foot putt is putting a terrible strain on Lindholm and Gaudreau to find ways to pick up the slack. The top teams have a top pivot who can create, will play effectively down low and on occasion carry the puck for a zone entry or two.

Monahan is at best a highly flawed second line center who needs a lot of support to succeed. Until this is addressed by Treliving, this team is not going anywhere. Pile on Johnny if you want, but it's painfully obvious that the pint sized forward needs a little physical help from the guy riding his coat tails his entire career.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Trading Gaudreau for future assets and then signing an absolute anchor contract that will carry through the term where you hope those good young assets develop to the point where they are worth their own big money deals is terrible ####ing asset management by the way and if you want any proof of that just look at this Flames roster that had to bridge their best player and grind one of their best emerging youngsters to a league minimum deal instead of locking him up to a reasonable contract the year before he predictably explodes.

Trying to turn #### into gold instead of admitting you suck is the Flames from 2008-2014.

This is my line of thinking. Hall won't fix this team, he'd be a band-aid on a broken leg at best. I think it's time for management to admit that the post-Iginla rebuild has failed, and try again at building a better team through the draft. Trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund for whatever picks you can get, give Tkachuk the C, and give the young guys the opportunity to prove themselves

It was absolutely dreadful to watch the Flames from '06 to '12 trying for the quick fix over and over again. I do not want to see a repeat of that