Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

My point was he is forcing his BELIEFS on others. He shows zero tolerance. That is not much difference.

Really? You choose to play the "bigotry against bigotry is just as bad" card? It's a common play, but still an assinine one. Thing is, not all beliefs or opinions are equal, nor are they all just as correct.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Itse

This is not a bad idea actually. It would let Hockey Canada take a stand and take the heat from IOC, while keeping the athletes out of it. Personally I would like the patch too, but it's a bit of a different question. (And besides it's not my team, so...)

Would be easier to get support for it, and it would give IOC and the Russians fits if hundreds of people started showing up to the games with that shirt. I could see a lot of non-Canadians buying those shirts too. I might buy one.

Quoted for Truth

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by photon

"Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins.", the liberty ends because to continue to swing the fist will cause undue harm, not just because the nose happens to exist. Until you can show harm (and show that that harm is worse than the harm limiting free speech has on a society), I don't see any convincing argument.

No. You can not gently touch my nose either. And I don't have to prove that your gentle touches of my nose do me harm to request you stop touching my nose.

Originally Posted by photon

You still haven't described the harm to children... because there isn't any. There's only perceived harm by parents who are so ignorant that they fear their children will be turned gay.

I still haven't described it because it is irrelevant. The point is that if parents believe that something is harmful to their children, it is their right to protect their child from it, even if parent's opinion is wrong. If you think that russian parents are ignorant, or even if they really are, doesn't mean that they can`t protect their children from something they feel is unappropriate.

Originally Posted by photon

Aren't you violating my human rights by telling my children that black people are equal to white people? Aren't you violating my human rights by telling my children that hetrosexual couples are better than homosexual ones? Aren't you violating my human rights by telling my children about your religion (or lack of religion)?

Yes, all three are violations of your rights. This is why I, being ateist, will not tell your children that there's no god, even though there's a lot of scientific evidence to it and I consider religious beliefs rural and backwards. I didn't want to go this way, but I had to use this example to show you, that some people may consider YOUR beliefs backwards and may have a lot of scientific and natural evidence to support it. No, I will not go into religious debate here.

Originally Posted by photon

Every single idea can be put into your "it's my child" argument, in either direction, which means this law needs to be expanded to include every idea that a parent could possibly disagree with (aren't you violating my human rights by telling my child that they need veggies to be healthy?!).

Correct. IF veggie propaganda will drive whole nation sick to the point that it will support anti-veggy propaganda law so much, there should be a law against it. You would argue, that it would then make sense to create a law to protect children from ANY unwanted propaganda. And again you probably would be right. However, abscense of law that protects children from any unwanted propaganda doesn't make a law, that protects them from some of it any bad.

Originally Posted by photon

No reasonable person will agree that talking about being gay is equivalent to talking about wild oral sex.

It is not equivalent. You couldn't understand why parents don't want someone to talk about being gay when kids are around. So I came up with "wild oral sex" example to show you that in some situations it is natural and common sense for parents to protect their kids from hearing certain things, and it doesn't necesserily mean that parents hate those things (wild oral sex is great, isn't it?)

Originally Posted by photon

Still wondering what your definition of "non-traditional sexual relationships" is and why an infertile black/white couple would not fall under that definition.. or have you abandoned your previous line of rationalization as it wasn't being fruitful?

Here, second paragraph from the bottom. Authorities say, that "non-traditional relationships" are the ones that can not produce children.

http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/621282

WHile I admit, that this definition is a bit vague and could be enhanced to be more precise and prevent possible abuse, I still maintain that common sense definition of "gays" is good enough for message-board discussion and that a 150$-fine law is very unlikely to be ever abused to launch a gays hunt.

Originally Posted by photon

"And even if it was, a gay couple CAN have children using techniques that other heterosexual couples that can't have children use, so this definition becomes useless."

Gay couple can't BORN children, they can only adopt. Lesbian couple can born children, but need a man (or his sperm) from outside their couple to do it, so this couple can't born children on their own. Then again, I consider arguing over definition pointless, as issue is obvlously much bigger and we can get lost in details. Even if this law had a definition that you would consider perfect, you would still be against it, right?

Originally Posted by SebC

Equality under the law is a basic human right, so yes it is.

Everyone is equal under this law. If hetero person will promote homosexuality to minors, he will be fined as well. This law punishes activity, not being or not being gay. For example, hetero male TV host will be punished if he will put a video promoting gay relationships to children.

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Well...there are examples where LGBT's protest...get attacked by counter protestors and then the victims are the ones arrested.

The discriminatory laws prevent equal rights...see this

Counter-protesters were also arrested. Please use neutral news sources, not LGBT propaganda reports.


http://lenta.ru/news/2013/05/25/detain/

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Yes, all three are violations of your rights. This is why I, being ateist, will not tell your children that there's no god, even though there's a lot of scientific evidence to it and I consider religious beliefs rural and backwards.

Mind sharing with us any of this scientific evidence? Never seen it before.

I still haven't described it because it is irrelevant.

If the harm to children is irrelevant what is the point of the law in the first place? If it is irrelevant than there should be no laws and no issues with any gay 'propaganda'.

It is not equivalent. You couldn't understand why parents don't want to talk about being gay when kids are around.

Why? I have children. What is so different in Russia that leads someone outside of the country the inability to understand. Honestly, what is the difference?

Here, second paragraph from the bottom. Authorities say, that "non-traditional relationships" are the ones that can not produce children.

I've never thought of my grandparents' marriage as 'non-traditional'. Quite the opposite, actually. IMO the inability to produce children seems like a huge cop out. Kinda like 'We can't think of a great reason, so let's go with they can't have kids'. It's weak, and it opens up a massive can of worms.

Even if this law had a definition that you would consider perfect, you would still be against it, right?

Perfect for me would be equality. So, if there is inequality I would still be against it. What would be a 'perfect' definition in your opinion?

Everyone is equal under this law.

Well, unless you're gay.

This law punishes activity, not being or not being gay.

This sounds a lot like the Mormon chuch...........it's okay if you're gay, just don't do anything about it. See? We're not bigots.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Mind sharing with us any of this scientific evidence? Never seen it before.

As I said, I'm not going into religious debate here. If you really care, you may google for it. Point was that trying to convince russians that talking about gays to their children will do no harm is similiar to trying to convince religious people that there's no god, even if you provide a lot of scientific and natural evidence on both cases.

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

If the harm to children is irrelevant what is the point of the law in the first place? If it is irrelevant than there should be no laws and no issues with any gay 'propaganda'.

Point of the law is that russian parents are sick of gay propaganda beyond the boiling point.

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

IMO the inability to produce children seems like a huge cop out. Kinda like 'We can't think of a great reason, so let's go with they can't have kids'. It's weak, and it opens up a massive can of worms.

I actually agree. Definition is weak, vague and not well-worded. I don't see $150 fines opening a massive can of worms though, hence I don't believe that this definition was created with plans to start gays witch hunt in mind.

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Perfect for me would be equality. So, if there is inequality I would still be against it. What would be a 'perfect' definition in your opinion?

Honestly I would struggle to come up with a perfect, loophole-free, encompassing definition for legal battles on this matter. If it was me writing the law and my job would be to come up with one, I would probably work for days on it. For the sake of debate, we can use the common sense understanding of "gays".

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

This sounds a lot like the Mormon chuch...........it's okay if you're gay, just don't do anything about it. See? We're not bigots.

It's ok to be gay, just don't wave it in face of my children. Russian people are really sick of it.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Pointman

As I said, I'm not going into religious debate here. If you really care, you may google for it.

Well, it does have a religious slant whether you like or not. I Googled 'scientific evidence of a god' and nothing concrete came up. If you could just find me one link I would really appreciate it.

Point of the law is that russian parents are sick of gay propaganda beyond the boiling point.

What propaganda? Honest question. Are there pro-gay ads on TV or radio there? Ads on the sides of buses? Billboards? I really am curious. Is it propaganda or just a bunch of heterosexuals that don't want to hear about it?

I don't see $150 fines opening a massive can of worms though, hence I don't believe that this definition was created with plans to start gays witch hunt in mind.

According to your previous definition it certainly does open a huge can of worms. Unable to have children? That doesn't just refer to homosexual couples but also numerous heterosexual couples as well. And I never said anything about a witch hunt.

Honestly I would struggle to come up with a perfect, loophole-free, encompassing definition for legal battles on this matter. If it was me writing the law and my job would be to come up with one, I would probably work for days on it. For the sake of debate, we can use the common sense understanding of "gays".

Maybe it's too late for me, but I'm not sure what you mean here. Please elaborate. 'Gays'. That's it?

It's ok to be gay, just don't wave it in face of my children. Russian people are really sick of it.

How exactly are gay people waving it in the face of your children? Serious question.

[puckluck2]

Science proves god doesn't exist, just google it.

You can't explain that!

[Mister Yamoto]

The more you guys talk the stupider you sound. And I am generally talking about both sides of this "debate".

A rainbow patch on a jersey would be a great idea because it would make us feel like we are doing something even though we are doing nothing at all. (Kind of like buying spiral shaped light bulbs) But who cares, perception is far more important than results in this politically correct don't say anything bad but do whatever you want world we live in.

I find it the opposite of amusing that the "pro rainbow" group seem to think that the gay bashers of the world are the least bit concerned about getting internet hate. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that they actually like it. Way to give Pointman a soapbox to stand on, keep up the good work pro rainbow crowd!

There is only one thing that the gay bashers, terrorists and other bad guys of the world are afraid of. And it is these two simple principals.

1. Love thy neighbour
2. Do on to others as you would have them do to you

The more people on earth that start following those 2 simple (but at times hard to do) principals the more these problems go away. It is the only way to take away the gay bashers power.

The world is becoming more and more full of you fingerpointing talkers at a time when what the world needs are action people. Seriously, Pointman, MisterMastodanFarm, KootenayFlamesFan etc, how many hours have you spent on this thread? And how many more? And how much difference have any of you made? I'm gonna say not a lick.

Reading Pointmans posts, dissecting them word for word and then giving the internet your well thought out counter does about as much for gay rights as wearing pink cures cancer. If you truly want to make the world a better place then you are going to have to get off the internet and actually do something positive.

The childrens playground expression "when you point your finger at me, three point back at you" truly applies here. Instead of arguing in circles just ask yourself, What can I do to make the world a better place today? If the best answer you can come up with is get into internet arguments with nameless faceless people then knock yourself out. No Seriously, actually figure out a way to really knock yourself out.

I can't believe I got sucked into this. Insomnia takes me to terrible places sometimes. But I am done in this thread. There is a disabled lady on my street who I am going to build a fence for today. So sorry, I'm gonna waste my day away while you champions of morality save the world. Good Night.

EDIT- Oh yeah, I hope it turns out that Pointman is some Flamin gay guy who doesn't even live in Russia and he is just messin with your heads

[Pointman]

Back to patches topic — let me give you a very clear picture of how canadians with rainbow patches will be received in Russia.

Imagine that from this season russian NHLers will be playing with a patch designed against the law that only USA-born person can be USA president. It is inequity based on something a person doesn't choose and can't change. You can't even defend it with "protecting children" arguments. You don't even have the "if hetero will be promoting gayness, he will be fined too, so it is equal" argument. It is undefendable, plain and simple discrimination that affected some people's life, such as Schwarnegger.

So, what if russian players will be wearing some patch against it? Imagine it for a minute — this is precisely the same, as Canadian players with rainbow patches in Russia (I'm not saying that the issues are the same, I'm only saying that public reaction will be the same).

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

EDIT- Oh yeah, I hope it turns out that Pointman is some Flamin gay guy who doesn't even live in Russia and he is just messin with your heads

You do realize that I'm Flames fan and I've been here for decade and posting mostly about Flames? I can still recall Marc Ciampa's comments on Clark Wilm back in Flames mailing list days

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Pointman

So, what if russian players will be wearing some patch against it? Imagine it for a minute — this is precisely the same, as Canadian players with rainbow patches in Russia (I'm not saying that the issues are the same, I'm only saying that public reaction will be the same).

A patch may not change the minds of Russians or the Russian government, but it would do several other things:
1) Tell the world where Canada stands in terms of LGBT rights. Ending slavery didn't happen in every country at the same time, but one by one, countries took an ethical stand and stopped the disgusting practice. But it took people standing up and letting others know that they thought it was wrong for progress to be made.
2) Tell the LGBT citizens of Canada know that we support them and their rights, both here and abroad. That we respect them. We saw just last year here in Ottawa the son of a city councillor committed suicide because he was being bullied and tormented for being gay. The "It Gets Better" campaign shouldn't need to exist because it shouldn't be bad to start with. We can send a signal to young people that being gay is no different than being of another race or religion and they should feel free to be who they are rather than hiding it.
3) It tells those suffering as LGBT in other countries that Canada is a safe haven for people wanting to escape foolish and cruel persecution in other countries. If Russia has talented engineers or doctors that happen to be gay, Canada would welcome them.

[saXon]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Science proves god doesn't exist, just google it.

You can't explain that!

Badda boom badda bing, Google solves everything.

Do you always believe everything you read on the internet?

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

A rainbow patch on a jersey would be a great idea because it would make us feel like we are doing something even though we are doing nothing at all. (Kind of like buying spiral shaped light bulbs) But who cares, perception is far more important than results in this politically correct don't say anything bad but do whatever you want world we live in.

I'm interested. What in this document do you refute? PM me rather than derail the thread. But I think this is another case of someone saying "do nothing" because "doing a little" isn't enough.
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/oee.nrc...FL_Facts_e.pdf

Way to give Pointman a soapbox to stand on, keep up the good work pro rainbow crowd!

I think homophobia, racism, misogyny should be out in the open for us to condemn, rather than hidden away. Give them all the soapbox that they want. I think Westboro Baptist Church has done more for gay rights than any other religious institution.

1. Love thy neighbour
2. Do on to others as you would have them do to you
The more people on earth that start following those 2 simple (but at times hard to do) principals the more these problems go away.

Rainbows and unicorns don't change the world. Ghandi didn't change things by walking little old ladies across the street. He had to rally support for his cause and demand change.

The childrens playground expression "when you point your finger at me, three point back at you" truly applies here. Instead of arguing in circles just ask yourself, What can I do to make the world a better place today? If the best answer you can come up with is get into internet arguments with nameless faceless people then knock yourself out. No Seriously, actually figure out a way to really knock yourself out.

I could take that point if that is the ONLY thing someone does to improve the world we live in. However, I think I do my fair share. Including being at the Russian embassy last weekend at the protest. However, discussing world issues (along with discussing hockey, participating in cyclist vs motorist threads and reading the latest tech news) is something I do for entertainment. Some people watch TV. Others read a book. I participate in discussions... particularly ones involving ethics. And while I have changed others points of view, that is a very rare thing. Most of the time I do it to challenge MYSELF. Question my own point of view. Can my reasoning stand up to the counterpoints being offered? I like challenging myself and my own mind. I mean, I didn't take this handle SOLELY because of my love of the Devils... it's a double entendre.... I like taking my views and discussing them, no matter if I am in the minority or in the majority.

I can't believe I got sucked into this. Insomnia takes me to terrible places sometimes. But I am done in this thread. There is a disabled lady on my street who I am going to build a fence for today. So sorry, I'm gonna waste my day away while you champions of morality save the world. Good Night.

And I thought I was the king of patting myself on the back/righteous indignation. Kudos. The condescending attitude of "champions of morality" was the best part. Today I am writing a speech for a health and wellness organization, putting up posters for a non-profit community group and getting supplies for Monday's Labour Day parade. And I'm participating in this thread. I think I am due some leisure time.. but if you are spending every waking hour dedicated to helping others and taking no time for yourself, all the power to you.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

The more you guys talk the stupider you sound. And I am generally talking about both sides of this "debate".

No, you know what? No. Screw your nuanced position. There are few enough days with an absolute right and an absolute wrong in politics and life, and this is one of them. There aren't two sides to the debate, there are good people and there's bad people, and if you need help finding the bad people, it's the bigots.

A rainbow patch on a jersey would be a great idea because it would make us feel like we are doing something even though we are doing nothing at all. (...) The world is becoming more and more full of you fingerpointing talkers at a time when what the world needs are action people. (...) If you truly want to make the world a better place then you are going to have to get off the internet and actually do something positive. (...) just ask yourself, What can I do to make the world a better place today? If the best answer you can come up with is get into internet arguments with nameless faceless people then knock yourself out. (...)

Just re-read your post. You have said over and over again "JUST DO SOMETHING" without providing even one suggestion or idea as to what action any person in Calgary could take that would make a tangible impact. What do you want everyone to do, go and assassinate the Russian politicians responsible? Run for office in Russia in an attempt to change the law?

All that CAN be done in the face of this is to talk about it and denounce it over and over in no uncertain terms and with no subtlety. It needs to be made clear to anyone who supports this law that they are bad people, that basically everyone with an ounce of decency thinks less of them for their views, and that the world would be better on balance if everyone who thinks like them were to jump off a bridge.

You know what I can do? Make my sphere of influence, limited as it may be, an awful, uncomfortable and oppressive place for people who hold bigoted views, so much so that they don't want to be anywhere near me. Applying the categorical imperative here, if everyone did so, there wouldn't be much of anywhere a bigot could really feel comfortable with him or herself, and oh boy wouldn't that be nice.

Originally Posted by Pointman

Imagine that from this season russian NHLers will be playing with a patch designed against the law that only USA-born person can be USA president. It is inequity based on something a person doesn't choose and can't change. You can't even defend it with "protecting children" arguments. You don't even have the "if hetero will be promoting gayness, he will be fined too, so it is equal" argument. It is undefendable, plain and simple discrimination that affected some people's life, such as Schwarnegger.

... Do you really want your big hypothetical argument by analogy to be this window-licking ######ed? I really doubt there are a lot of Austrian kids out there contemplating suicide because they can't become President of the United States some day. One law says "you can't have this job". The other says "who you are is wrong and abnormal, so much so that we're worried about you infecting children".

If not for the stunningly obtuse nonsense I've heard from various Russians throughout the past few weeks I'd be convinced this was trolling.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by saXon

Do you always believe everything you read on the internet?

Oh, the irony.

[saXon]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Oh, the irony.

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Science proves god doesn't exist, just google it.

You can't explain that!

Indeed.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

A patch may not change the minds of Russians or the Russian government, but it would do several other things:
1) Tell the world where Canada stands in terms of LGBT rights. Ending slavery didn't happen in every country at the same time, but one by one, countries took an ethical stand and stopped the disgusting practice. But it took people standing up and letting others know that they thought it was wrong for progress to be made.
2) Tell the LGBT citizens of Canada know that we support them and their rights, both here and abroad. That we respect them. We saw just last year here in Ottawa the son of a city councillor committed suicide because he was being bullied and tormented for being gay. The "It Gets Better" campaign shouldn't need to exist because it shouldn't be bad to start with. We can send a signal to young people that being gay is no different than being of another race or religion and they should feel free to be who they are rather than hiding it.
3) It tells those suffering as LGBT in other countries that Canada is a safe haven for people wanting to escape foolish and cruel persecution in other countries. If Russia has talented engineers or doctors that happen to be gay, Canada would welcome them.

Great post.

[moon]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

... Do you really want your big hypothetical argument by analogy to be this window-licking ######ed?

If you want to be the super champion of equality and morality while fighting bigotry everywhere that you seem to think you are I would probably try to avoid using offensive words like ######ed which have been used by bigots to marginalize people for a long time.

[WilderPegasus]

Originally Posted by moon

If you want to be the super champion of equality and morality while fighting bigotry everywhere that you seem to think you are I would probably try to avoid using offensive words like ######ed which have been used by bigots to marginalize people for a long time.

That's Obvious! Unless he's Six.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

The more you guys talk the stupider you sound. And I am generally talking about both sides of this "debate".

A rainbow patch on a jersey would be a great idea because it would make us feel like we are doing something even though we are doing nothing at all. (Kind of like buying spiral shaped light bulbs) But who cares, perception is far more important than results in this politically correct don't say anything bad but do whatever you want world we live in.

The world is becoming more and more full of you fingerpointing talkers at a time when what the world needs are action people. Seriously, Pointman, MisterMastodanFarm, KootenayFlamesFan etc, how many hours have you spent on this thread? And how many more? And how much difference have any of you made? I'm gonna say not a lick.

Reading Pointmans posts, dissecting them word for word and then giving the internet your well thought out counter does about as much for gay rights as wearing pink cures cancer. If you truly want to make the world a better place then you are going to have to get off the internet and actually do something positive.

The childrens playground expression "when you point your finger at me, three point back at you" truly applies here. Instead of arguing in circles just ask yourself, What can I do to make the world a better place today? If the best answer you can come up with is get into internet arguments with nameless faceless people then knock yourself out. No Seriously, actually figure out a way to really knock yourself out.

I can't believe I got sucked into this. Insomnia takes me to terrible places sometimes. But I am done in this thread. There is a disabled lady on my street who I am going to build a fence for today. So sorry, I'm gonna waste my day away while you champions of morality save the world. Good Night.

Firstly, when calling into question the intelligence of others, I would highly recommend you avoid the use of words like "stupider", which do not exist. It makes you sound "stupider" than the people you're condemning.

Secondly, there seems to be two things that you are completely unable to grasp about the world you live in.
1. This thing you perceive as people feeling that they're doing something when really they are doing nothing at all? It's called raising awareness. You know what that means right? Do you understand the basic concept? Pink ribbons, rainbow patches, yellow rubber bands, you GET it right? They raise awareness for issues, they start conversations. Their impact is not always significant, but it's a part of the solution. Who are you to condemn something to that does good because of your personal and pessimistic view on the amount of good it does? People should do a lot of good or none at all? Interesting theory.
2. Do you, and I mean this question with the utmost sincerity, believe that the people here discussing this subject with other members of this board believe that each and every one of them is somehow changing gay rights? Check again bro, it's called a discussion on the Internet. Fun fact: you can talk about something on the Internet and still do things in your day to day life. Pretty incredible huh? That's right, people can come on here for recreation, have a bit of a chat on an issue they please, and STILL have enough time in a 24 hour day for pretty much EVERYTHING else in the world. Amazing! Maybe it's because you're a wee bit sleepy and you need to be put down for a nap, but having this discussion on the Internet is pretty much only seen as an attempt to make considerable change in gay rights in Russia by YOU. We're not making that leap, you are. Sometimes I talk about Syria with my friends, we have a chat, discuss what's going on, debate this and that, but at the end of it we don't pat ourselves on the back and say "job well done chaps! you've done the equivalent of saving a refugee!". Come on man, figure it out would you?

I'd say your reaction is almost perfect trolling, in the sense that I'm not entirely sure how someone rolls in, mucks up a sentence about intelligence making them look like a hypocrite, does all they can to bash both sides of the argument, and pretends like they are someone above every single person in the thread. Bravo kid, you got our number!

Hey, do you really believe you're helping the disabled by building a fence? Maybe you should get off the lawn, go drop some cash for some medical research, and REALLY make some change. I mean, after all, we're all in a place to judge the amount of good someone does right? I didn't think I'd see a post that was as laughably ignorant as some of the anti-gay ones here, but congrats bud, you nailed it.