Brad Treliving needs to go

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Can’t trade players after a bad season, their value is at a low. Can’t trade players after a good season, they’re too valuable.

If it were up to some of you this team would never change. In which case I can see why you would want to keep Treliving around. Can’t upset this amazing thing we’ve got going.

No one is saying that. I think people are just expressing the nuance of the situation.
Are you in favor of making bad deals for the sake of doing something?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

There's a whole lot of real estate being blowing it up and making some changes.

I though the rationale behind the 2019 trade deadline was to see what the team could do in the playoffs. The regular season success was unexpected so instead of going balls to the wall with deadline acquisitions (like most teams leading the conference would do) let's get a better idea of the team's ability to deliver when it counts.

I'd say we learned a lot about the team post deadline in 2019. And again the next season. And again the season after that.

You can make changes without blowing it up.

Oh I agree. And changes have been made.
But I've also stated I don't like the forward group. And that I would have traded Johnny as early as last off-season.
But I also choose not to judge in a binary way without knowing what those possible trades. And frankly not trading Johnny last summer was probably the right move as he had a better season. But now you have the contract situation and NTC Kicking in.

I'd like to see them make a major change to the top 6 forwards, but not if that means making a bad deal. Or dumping Monahan for nothing. I'd rather see if he can turn things around.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Can’t trade players after a bad season, their value is at a low. Can’t trade players after a good season, they’re too important to the team.

If it were up to some of you this team would never change. In which case I can see why you would want to keep Treliving around. Can’t upset this amazing thing we’ve got going.

I don't think anyone is saying that.

You don't trade a important players coming off great seasons unless you get your socks blown off in an offer, or for contract reasons.

But sure you can trade any player at any time, but the player coming off a poor season and/or surgery may get you offers that deem to low to move on. You're saying just go ahead and do it anyway?

I don't see the % of those on this site that feel "the Flames have an amazing thing going" is that high.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

Is Hanifin part of that core, he's only been here 3 seasons and it's hard to count the first year as part of the core. Same with Lindholm... would he not be part of the core now

Would Tanev be part of the core now or Markstrom

Tkachuk has only had 3 seasons as part of the core

Core has changed, all the remains are 3 players. If you want to change the core, I'm afraid there will be a lot of disappointed people on this forum if that happens, and Johnny is moved

Since the expansion draft, the core and dressing room have had a drastic facelift. The shortcomings of the old don't fall on Hanifin, Markstrom and Lindholm who will have a much bigger role as our core than any other players on this team IMO

Core I was referring towards are the forwards Monahan, Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Lindholm, and Backlund. Clearly has not changed.

I don't think Tanev or Hanifin are part of the core,

They have added such as Coleman, however most years they have made changes with the depth players (Lewis, Pitlick, etc...)

[SuperMatt18]

The core has clearly changed.

This team has 4 players that played on our opening night roster for the 17-18 season: Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund, Tkachuk (who was in his second season at that time).

In the three seasons since then:

Andersson, Mangiapane, Dube, Valimaki, Kylington, Mackey have graduated from the farm system.

Lindholm, Hanifin, Lucic, Zadorov, Pitlick, Vladar were added via trade.

Coleman, Tanev, Markstrom (and a bunch of league min guys) were added via UFA.

To say the core or makeup of this roster has not changed is just false. Outside of our top 4 forwards this team's makeup has changed drastically over the last 3 seasons.

And it's funny, most people don't want to move Gaudreau or Tkachuk. Nobody wants to move Lindholm or his contract. So really the big issue seems that the GM hasn't been able to move or upgrade on Monahan or Backlund.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't think anyone is saying that.

You don't trade a important players coming off great seasons unless you get your socks blown off in an offer, or for contract reasons.

But sure you can trade any player at any time, but the player coming off a poor season and/or surgery may get you offers that deem to low to move on. You're saying just go ahead and do it anyway?

I don't see the % of those on this site that feel "the Flames have an amazing thing going" is that high.

Or maybe you trade the player for another guy coming off a poor season or injury.

Seems like there are ways to get fair value for players.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Seems like there are ways to get fair value for players.

Is there? Based on what?
How does one define fair.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

No one is saying that. I think people are just expressing the nuance of the situation.
Are you in favor of making bad deals for the sake of doing something?

I think there's significant danger in assuming better deals are coming. Teams aren't going to get more generous when we're more desperate. As usual, the team waited too long to make moves.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Or maybe you trade the player for another guy coming off a poor season or injury.

Seems like there are ways to get fair value for players.

You need the other team to cooperate even there. Is Detroit trading Larkin for Monahan? Is Columbus trading Laine for Monahan? Maybe Calgary should just "change for change sake" and trade Monahan for Skinner and hope Skinner rebounds after 2 crap seasons.

[GioforPM]

https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2021/05/31...elphia-flyers/

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think there's significant danger in assuming better deals are coming. Teams aren't going to get more generous when we're more desperate. As usual, the team waited too long to make moves.

I think the GM may have hitched his horse to Eichel and held off other moves and now that the season is approaching he's probably in a bad spot in that a lot of doors have closed. I have to imagine his job security is linked to making the playoffs this season so the fact that he hasn't made a desperation deal is a sign he's not panicking.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think there's significant danger in assuming better deals are coming. Teams aren't going to get more generous when we're more desperate. As usual, the team waited too long to make moves.

I just don't get how this crowd can make statements without any real facts.

You have no idea the team waited too long.

I'm sure he could have moved sooner for sure, but we don't know what those moves (value) would have been.

[Toonage]

By that same token we have no idea if they tried or didn't try.

Really you both could be right.

Schrodinger's GM

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I just don't get how this crowd can make statements without any real facts.

You have no idea the team waited too long.

I'm sure he could have moved sooner for sure, but we don't know what those moves (value) would have been.

Most of the discussion on this board isn't backed 100% by facts.

I just don't get the "sit on your hands in perpetuity" crowd who just excuses away the continual stagnation of this club with "maybe maybe maybe". Are people wanting a 100% slam dunk body of evidence before doing something? Because that's exceedingly rare.

This is two eras now, essentially back to back, where the Flames handcuff themselves with indecision and refusal to accept the reality on the ice while asset value erodes.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I just don't get how this crowd can make statements without any real facts.

You have no idea the team waited too long.

I'm sure he could have moved sooner for sure, but we don't know what those moves (value) would have been.

We learned yesterday...from 1qqaaz.

And yet for whatever reason, fans seem to be correct much more often than most GMs. When fans criticize bad draft picks, trades, hires, or signings, they're almost always right in hindsight.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by nik-

Most of the discussion on this board isn't backed 100% by facts.

I just don't get the "sit on your hands in perpetuity" crowd who just excuses away the continual stagnation of this club with "maybe maybe maybe". Are people wanting a 100% slam dunk body of evidence before doing something? Because that's exceedingly rare.

This is two eras now, essentially back to back, where the Flames handcuff themselves with indecision and refusal to accept the reality on the ice while asset value erodes.

I think pretty much everyone wants changes but I have also accepted the fact that the Flames are not going to rebuild while Sutter is here. If they are going to try and contend then making a crappy trade just for the sake of change isn't go to do much.
Ideally it is Eichel or they rebuild but last thing I want to see is a repetition of the Phaneuf trade. Gaudreau's value won't change much between now and the deadline regardless now that he has hit NTC. No GM would have traded Monahan after his 82 point season either.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I think pretty much everyone wants changes but I have also accepted the fact that the Flames are not going to rebuild while Sutter is here. If they are going to try and contend then making a crappy trade just for the sake of change isn't go to do much.
Ideally it is Eichel or they rebuild but last thing I want to see is a repetition of the Phaneuf trade. Gaudreau's value won't change much between now and the deadline regardless now that he has hit NTC. No GM would have traded Monahan after his 82 point season either.

If they're making any trades for now, I agree, it's a mistake. Any further spending of assets for this group is the wrong choice. It's over. Hiring Sutter is emblematic of the issue they have with acceptance. The problem clearly doesn't stop at the GM office.

I don't know what's "fair" value for someone like Monahan, but I can hypothesize, based on trajectory, that the value in two years is pretty unlikely to be better.

And I disagree that no GM would have traded him after that season. Fans had the ability to see what happened, a really hot start to the season and then total implosion after the all-star break. They went right back to their typical selves after an aberration. It wasn't hindsight two years later, it was discussion immediately after getting dumped in the playoffs. There's no reason GMs can't see the same thing.

[saillias]

To those who follow analytics and the Jfresh style of charts and their predecessors. People were noticing that Monahan's game really dropped off in the 2nd half of that season.

There's this ongoing argument in the fandom where people say "oh but you had no idea Monahan was going to decline after the 82 point season." That's not really true, this information is out there but I understand some don't like to follow it & think it's lacking and that's certainly your right.

But a GM should be AHEAD of the curve with this kind of information, not behind some hobbyists on twitter with patreons.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by nik-

And I disagree that no GM would have traded him after that season. Fans had the ability to see what happened, a really hot start to the season and then total implosion after the all-star break. They went right back to their typical selves after an aberration. It wasn't hindsight two years later, it was discussion immediately after getting dumped in the playoffs. There's no reason GMs can't see the same thing.

I just can't get there unless you are letting the following seasons cloud your judgement. Treliving would have to downgrade on his #1C after a great regular season. Don't think any GM does it. Best season in recent team history and Monahan looked like a legitimate #1C for most of it. Post All-Star break and playoffs were concerning though.

Treliving wasn't going to get a better center in a trade for Monahan and the Flames would have been left Backlund and Bennett as the Flames top-6 centers if Monahan went. Lindholm had played wing pretty much his entire NHL career up to that point and was an unknown quantity there.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Is there? Based on what?
How does one define fair.

What do you mean? Fair value is based on what someone is willing to pay.

All things are possible but if you can’t complete a trade in this league I find it more likely to believe you can’t value your own players appropriately vs. believing the other 31 teams can’t.