Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[nik-]

The real shame is having the same percentage as the Senators. That team doesn't even have real fans!

[Parallex]

Hmmm, I see Francis must have gotten the envelope slipped under his door this month.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Come on man. They ran into what is the absolute worst mayor you would ever want go negotiate with on a matter like this

Yeah... one who won't genuflect before the folk with the gall to think they can demand the public give them $300,000,000.00 in upfront capital subsidies alongside millions more in ongoing operating subsidies. Really though...

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I suppose if they tell themselves it's only one guy being a dick, they don't have to face the reality that a whole bunch of people in positions of responsibility in this city, from analysts to planners to every member of council, do not believe the offer made by Flames ownership is anything close to being a good deal for citizens.

... is absolutely right. The Flames have not moved one iota off of their initial position. We saw their last offer... the funding ratio was exactly the same as their first offer.

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Yea but with the exception of the Oilers none of those teams had a 35 year old building. I'd love it if there was a billionaire Flames super-fan who was willing to buy the team and personally finance a new arena but that person doesn't exist. No one will touch this franchise and keep it in Calgary without a building deal.

I bet there are a ton of Oilmen who would love to buy the team and try their hand at negotiating a deal with the city.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

I bet there are a ton of Oilmen who would love to buy the team and try their hand at negotiating a deal with the city.

I'm not sure about a ton but generally though I agree. Just because Murray Edwards can't close the deal doesn't mean that there isn't another guy who thinks that he can get it done.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Yea but with the exception of the Oilers none of those teams had a 35 year old building. I'd love it if there was a billionaire Flames super-fan who was willing to buy the team and personally finance a new arena but that person doesn't exist. No one will touch this franchise and keep it in Calgary without a building deal.

Thats fine, Building deals and Capital Proposals happen all the time.

This deal between these parties isnt working, thats not to say that it cant be done at all.

I think some of the major sticking points are the nostalgic 'We've been here forever' and 'this was the deal we have now' and 'look what they got.'

Change up the parties and it stands to reason you can change up the results as well.

[jammies]

I'd be sad if the Flames left, but not as sad as I'd be if the City wasted half a billion dollars on an arena. Especially as the era of public subsidy of professional sports is, imo, coming to an inglorious and definite end.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by jammies

I'd be sad if the Flames left, but not as sad as I'd be if the City wasted half a billion dollars on an arena. Especially as the era of public subsidy of professional sports is, imo, coming to an inglorious and definite end.

I have to agree with this as well.

I want the Flames to stay, why wouldnt I? I'm a huge fan. But the economic realities of publicly funded buildings seem pretty clear.

There is going to be a massive overhaul to the landscape of Television Rights and user fees and the upheaval of that overhaul is likely going to impact sports severely.

In the meantime we as taxpayers dont want to be on the hook for a half-billion dollar arena during tumultuous times of economic uncertainty of our own.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by stang

Alberta Oilers.

Let that sink in.

[burn_this_city]

The Flames current financial struggles coincide with a decline in the dollar. It's not the building that has driven them to have-not status, it's the exchange rate. I'm not even convinced a new building would fix that issue.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Parallex

... is absolutely right. The Flames have not moved one iota off of their initial position. We saw their last offer... the funding ratio was exactly the same as their first offer.

And where is the surprise...???

The Flames deal is completely beneficial to them. As a starting negotiation point, why move?

The City deal is completely beneficial to them. As a starting negotiation point, why move?

Can anyone honestly think the Flames offer is what they expect? Can anyone honestly think the City offer is what they expect?

Neither side is negotiating in good faith yet, because if they do, they are negotiating with themselves, and the other side will go, "Well, let's meet in the middle from THERE" (aka NHL vs NHLPA during the missed season).

It's easy as a taxpayer to get behind the City offer as it will cost you the smallest amount in taxes, and equally easy to vilify the Flames offer due to higher taxes.

At the end of the day, both groups have to be willing to meet in the middle, or the Flames will end up being sold (and then likely leaving).

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

The Flames current financial struggles coincide with a decline in the dollar. It's not the building that has driven them to have-not status, it's the exchange rate. I'm not even convinced a new building would fix that issue.

I don't know, but from the Forbes list the Oilers went from a 3 million dollar operating income to a 25 million dollar operating income when they moved into that new barn.

It would be interesting to see how their profit increased besides jacking prices

[troutman]

Dowbiggen used to threaten that the Flames were on the verge of moving. They didn't, and where is he?

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...eneration-sex/

Damn, I had it pegged at 4% myself, so I guess it's nice that we have 5, but the point still stands. People get tunnel vision on the Flames but that chart really shows that there's only two franchises that matter in this country.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by troutman

Dowbiggen used to threaten that the Flames were on the verge of moving. They didn't, and where is he?

Incredible coincidence.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

And where is the surprise...???

The Flames deal is completely beneficial to them. As a starting negotiation point, why move?

The City deal is completely beneficial to them. As a starting negotiation point, why move?

Can anyone honestly think the Flames offer is what they expect? Can anyone honestly think the City offer is what they expect?

Neither side is negotiating in good faith yet, because if they do, they are negotiating with themselves, and the other side will go, "Well, let's meet in the middle from THERE" (aka NHL vs NHLPA during the missed season).

It's easy as a taxpayer to get behind the City offer as it will cost you the smallest amount in taxes, and equally easy to vilify the Flames offer due to higher taxes.

At the end of the day, both groups have to be willing to meet in the middle, or the Flames will end up being sold (and then likely leaving).

have you read both proposals in depth and come to this conclusion, or are you just of the opinion that a negotiation boils down to meeting in the middle of 2 offers regardless of the content

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

At the end of the day, both groups have to be willing to meet in the middle

It's hard to negotiate when one side stubbornly refuses to even sit at the table.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Parallex

It's hard to negotiate when one side stubbornly refuses to even sit at the table.

tough to schedule meetings from London?

[RM14]

So.... There are almost 2 Million flames fans? wow

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Parallex

It's hard to negotiate when one side stubbornly refuses to even sit at the table.

Completely.

That being said, my opinion on the Flames refusing to sit at the table is that the city is saying, "Come back to the table. You know our position - where do you want to go from here?"...

Based on the information publicly available, the two positions are nowhere near each other (from amount being paid, or loaned to a share in casino/parking revenue, etc...).

IF the city wants to use it's position as a starting point (again, opinion), well you can only go so far from that, and that amounts to a waste of time from a CSEC perspective. That's like the Flames saying the same thing, "Starting from where we are now, what do you want to tweak to get this done?"

Both sides need to be willing to move well off their current positions, or nothing will happen.

[nik-]

The City isn't interested in negotiating against itself because they're not morons.