Israel declares war on Hamas

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

From the article you posted;


I’m not sure that will work.

Ok, you guys stop all activities of aggression and we might release the hostages. After you stop, we will continue to fire missiles into your cities though, do we have a deal?

I mean, looking at it from Hamas' perspective. Do they release all hostages without a guaranteed long term ceasefire and commitment to ending the siege?

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Leondros

I was initially quite supportive of Israel responding in a military sense. What changed quite quickly was two main factors:

1) The staunch resistance to allowing humanitarian aid, food, water, medicine, etc. into Gaza
2) The messaging associated with evacuations, and then immediately bombing the same areas (ie. being completely unreasonable towards to the general population in terms of realistic time frames to move) or bombing the areas in which they told people to move to.

That's at least for me, and it was early on where I lost the sympathy.

Pretty much the same for me. To go in aggressively after Hamas was understandable. Early on it was clear that their definition of "aggressive" was more like what I would call "ruthless and cruel".

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I mean, looking at it from Hamas' perspective. Do they release all hostages without a guaranteed long term ceasefire and commitment to ending the siege?

Definitely not. But do you think Israel is going to say yes, knowing that Hamas will still be firing missiles at them? That is not a ceasefire.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I mean, looking at it from Hamas' perspective. Do they release all hostages without a guaranteed long term ceasefire and commitment to ending the siege?

Hamas has no interest in those things anyway.
They're getting rich off the chaos and conflict.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Definitely not. But do you think Israel is going to say yes, knowing that Hamas will still be firing missiles at them? That is not a ceasefire.

I think Hamas has more to lose if the other party doesn't live up to their side of the bargain.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Hamas has no interest in those things anyway.
They're getting rich off the chaos and conflict.

I'm not sure I buy that. Weapons manufacturers getting rich? Yes, without a doubt. Either Israel or Hamas getting rich? I don't see it.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Hey just curious if there is anybody in here who was originally supportive of Israel's response, but now thinks it has gone too far? If so, what was the point at which you shifted your thoughts?

I disagree with many of the tactics the IDF is using. They seem to be too eager to knock a building down, instead of engaging in a fire fight. Obviously, if it's a legit hunkered down area that will cost the lives of many troops, the building should be knocked down, with care for civilians. Israel is doing too much damage though.

I'm also shocked at how much the leaders of Gaza are doing to protect their own lives at the cost of the safety of the people of Gaza. They legitimately have zero care for the safety of the population they supposedly represent. I always suspected this to be the case, but seeing it in practice is crazy. They also have zero care for any kind of rules of war. How can they possibly march hostages through hospitals? Pure evil.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

The universities in Gaza must also have tunnels under them.

It's self defence.


The enemy was so hunkered down that they had time to place 315 mines all over the campus.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1747730495482310771

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sure, then Israel can just go back to slowly taking the land over time. You can see how this is a no win for the people of Gaza, right? No matter what happens or what they try to do, Israel is a powerful aggressor who will continue doing what they have been doing for decades. I have no doubt in probably less than 30 years Israel will be control of all the land.

No doubt for years there has been strong opposition within successive Israeli governments to the idea of a two-state solution. Part of the problem is that Israel's proportionate representation system of democracy has ensured that smaller extreme parties have disproportionate influence over policy. Years ago the Labour and Likud parties had formed a national unity government and had the opportunity to amend the constitution to adopt a Canadian style first past the post-constituency style of government but unfortunately they did not. All PR systems do is ensure weak coalitions and several elections that no one wants.

But until October 7, I believe the majority of Israel's Jewish population would have supported a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza including land swaps, certain reparations and shared sovereignty over the Old City of Jerusalem. This could have also included free trade and other agreements ensuring free movement of people, goods and services between Israel and Palestine. The old Rabin/Peres plans to build an elevated freeway over the Negev Desert connecting Gaza and the West Bank could have been resurrected. The conditions would have included a de-militarized Palestine with Israel assisting with national defense. Of course a Palestinian state would have its own police and internal security forces.

Now unfortunately you may be right. The dream of Israel and Palestine living side by side is likely dead for decades.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sure, then Israel can just go back to slowly taking the land over time. You can see how this is a no win for the people of Gaza, right? No matter what happens or what they try to do, Israel is a powerful aggressor who will continue doing what they have been doing for decades. I have no doubt in probably less than 30 years Israel will be control of all the land.

Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, but it seems like you're saying they were right to take hostages. If so, I don't know what to say to you.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, but it seems like you're saying they were right to take hostages. If so, I don't know what to say to you.

No, not at all. Nothing was "right" about what they did Oct 7th. I understand why they are using it as a tactic though. Understanding isn't endorsing.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

No, not at all. Nothing was "right" about what they did Oct 7th. I understand why they are using it as a tactic though. Understanding isn't endorsing.

Ya rape is understandable

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Ya rape is understandable

Good lord man, that's how you decide to re-enter the thread? We were talking about hostages. No, I don't understand why they raped them. Need a psychology degree for that one.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Good lord man, that's how you decide to re-enter the thread? We were talking about hostages. No, I don't understand why they raped them. Need a psychology degree for that one.

You said “you understand their tactics”, so it’s understandable to you why the elected ruling government of Gaza raped and mutilated Israelis on October 7th.

But you do not understand the Israeli response. Typical.

You don’t know why they raped them? It is entrenched in their jihadi ideology that any non-Muslim is an infidel, it’s the same ideology the Nazis used. Gaza is a nazi like state whose population has been brainwashed since birth. You can just see it in the beautiful education system UNWRA has helped create for them. You don’t need a psychology degree to understand this. But hey, Israel is the Nazis amiright?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sure, then Israel can just go back to slowly taking the land over time. You can see how this is a no win for the people of Gaza, right? No matter what happens or what they try to do, Israel is a powerful aggressor who will continue doing what they have been doing for decades. I have no doubt in probably less than 30 years Israel will be control of all the land.

That’s why Israel left Gaza completely in 2005. What a genius move if they wanted to control it. You really think the plan was always to conquer Gaza? Israel does not want Gaza. The imagination of the anti-Israel crowd is truly impressive

Maybe if the government of Gaza spent the billions of foreign aid given to them on infrastructure instead of terror tunnels then maybe there would actually be a reason for Israel to want Gaza. But if that was the case there wouldn’t be a war anyway.

And don’t worry, I am not staying long, I know the echo chamber needs to be maintained.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You said “you understand their tactics”, so it’s understandable to you why the elected ruling government of Gaza raped and mutilated Israelis on October 7th.

But you do not understand the Israeli response. Typical.

For #### sake man, you can't even quote my words properly. What you type in quotes gives it a completely different meaning than what I wrote. You can't just re-arrange words like that and anyone with a brain bigger than an olive knows that. Just #### off already, you've called me a liar and now this? Try this again and you can spend some more time in the sin bin.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Beninho

And don’t worry, I am not staying long

Course you are.
You can't even be honest with yourself.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

For #### sake man, you can't even quote my words properly. What you type in quotes gives it a completely different meaning than what I wrote. You can't just re-arrange words like that and anyone with a brain bigger than an olive knows that. Just #### off already, you've called me a liar and now this? Try this again and you can spend some more time in the sin bin.

Please continue your diatribe of Israel’s want to conquer Gaza, it was so rational!

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by blankall

I disagree with many of the tactics the IDF is using. They seem to be too eager to knock a building down, instead of engaging in a fire fight. Obviously, if it's a legit hunkered down area that will cost the lives of many troops, the building should be knocked down, with care for civilians. Israel is doing too much damage though.

I'm also shocked at how much the leaders of Gaza are doing to protect their own lives at the cost of the safety of the people of Gaza. They legitimately have zero care for the safety of the population they supposedly represent. I always suspected this to be the case, but seeing it in practice is crazy. They also have zero care for any kind of rules of war. How can they possibly march hostages through hospitals? Pure evil.

He asked had anyone changed their minds as the ongoing inhumane atrocities committed by the Israel got worse and worse?

Not for a defence of genocide. Pure evil.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Please continue your diatribe of Israel’s want to conquer Gaza, it was so rational!

Why? You're not staying long?