Ya I’m not paying any attention to what a regime says that whips a woman 75 times for not covering her head or stones a woman to death for being the victim of a sexual assault.
The Hamas terrorists trained under the best.
Sure. Whether or not you like Iran is irrelevant. Their government still said something pertaining to the sites they targeted. Their human rights record doesn't negate that fact. Iran can have a terrible human rights record AND be telling the truth about the sites they hit.
Israel is accused of having targeted a group of Palestinian civilians with no links to armed groups and who posed no threat to Israeli forces, according to witnesses in the occupied West Bank.
Seven men - four of them brothers - were killed in an Israeli air strike early on 7 January, as they sat around a fire next to the road through al-Shuhada village, 10km (six miles) from the city of Jenin.
The BBC has spoken to relatives of the men killed, witnesses in the area at the time, and a paramedic at the scene. All provided strong evidence that the men were not members of armed militant groups, and that no clashes with Israeli forces were taking place in the location at the time.
Hey just curious if there is anybody in here who was originally supportive of Israel's response, but now thinks it has gone too far? If so, what was the point at which you shifted your thoughts?
"In any future arrangement … Israel needs security control all territory west of the Jordan," Netanyahu told a nationally broadcast news conference. "This collides with the idea of sovereignty. What can you do?"
Sooo....from the river to the sea, then? Just confirming what some of us have known the whole time, Israel wants everything and they'll stop at pretty much nothing to take it all, and justify it with words like "safety".
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Hey just curious if there is anybody in here who was originally supportive of Israel's response, but now thinks it has gone too far? If so, what was the point at which you shifted your thoughts?
I don't know if I completely fall in this category or not but I'd say on Oct.8 I was fully in favour of Israeli forces invading Gaza in order to wipe out Hamas. I recognized that there would be civilian deaths like there is in any urban conflict but I hoped that one of the most advanced militaries in the world would be able to target the enemy while minimizing civilian deaths. I'm still in favour of that but the way Israel has gone about it has been too reckless in their disregard for civilian casualties (I'm still not sold that Israel is targeting civilians). Yes, Hamas itself has a large part to play in these civilian casualties but Israel could do better. Israel obviously made the calculation (possibly right from the start) that the lives of IDF soldiers were more valuable than those of Gazan civilians. Otherwise, they would have had a much more directed attack which would have resulted in more IDF deaths, would be slower, more costly, and with less chance of succeeding in destroying Hamas.
Hey just curious if there is anybody in here who was originally supportive of Israel's response, but now thinks it has gone too far? If so, what was the point at which you shifted your thoughts?
I was initially quite supportive of Israel responding in a military sense. What changed quite quickly was two main factors:
1) The staunch resistance to allowing humanitarian aid, food, water, medicine, etc. into Gaza
2) The messaging associated with evacuations, and then immediately bombing the same areas (ie. being completely unreasonable towards to the general population in terms of realistic time frames to move) or bombing the areas in which they told people to move to.
That's at least for me, and it was early on where I lost the sympathy.
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Hey just curious if there is anybody in here who was originally supportive of Israel's response, but now thinks it has gone too far? If so, what was the point at which you shifted your thoughts?
Hamas still holds the power to end this and chooses not to (release hostages).
One could argue that Hamas has less regard for Palestinian lives than Israel. Ability to end this by releasing hostages along with using civilians as human shields.
That aside, I honestly can’t answer you question. I don’t follow the news closely. Most of the information I get on this conflict comes from CP.
I've got a question that I'm a little too afraid to ask. What is the state status of Palestinian people? If Israel doesn't want to recognize a Palestinian state, then does that make them Israeli citizens? Does a child born in Gaza have the same rights and freedoms as a child born in Tel Aviv?
You really think at this point releasing hostages will stop Israel? I wouldn't be at all surprised if Hamas is now just holding on because they know if they send them all back, Israel has even less reason to show restraint. They've already said they want all the land. Why wouldn't you believe them? Handing them back seems to assure destruction.
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You really think at this point releasing hostages will stop Israel? I wouldn't be at all surprised if Hamas is now just holding on because they know if they send them all back, Israel has even less reason to show restraint. They've already said they want all the land. Why wouldn't you believe them? Handing them back seems to assure destruction.
I don’t know. I think they could hand the hostages over in a negotiated cease fire.
Sure, then Israel can just go back to slowly taking the land over time. You can see how this is a no win for the people of Gaza, right? No matter what happens or what they try to do, Israel is a powerful aggressor who will continue doing what they have been doing for decades. I have no doubt in probably less than 30 years Israel will be control of all the land.
I've got a question that I'm a little too afraid to ask. What is the state status of Palestinian people? If Israel doesn't want to recognize a Palestinian state, then does that make them Israeli citizens? Does a child born in Gaza have the same rights and freedoms as a child born in Tel Aviv?
Palestinians are stateless. Like my parents and I literally had no passport until we received canadian citizenship in 1992.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctorfever
I don’t know. I think they could hand the hostages over in a negotiated cease fire.
I think Hamas has hinted that this is the only way Israel will receive the hostages back.
Sooo....from the river to the sea, then? Just confirming what some of us have known the whole time, Israel wants everything and they'll stop at pretty much nothing to take it all, and justify it with words like "safety".
Netanyahu and the Likud party have never supported a two state solution and the Likud party has within their own policy a version of river to the sea. The party literally has Zionism as a policy. This should come as no surprise to anyone with historical knowledge.
The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)
a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.
Settlement
Settlement. both urban and rural. in all parts of the Land of Israel is the focal point of the Zionist effort to redeem the country, to maintain vital security areas and serves as a reservoir of strength and inspiration for the renewal of the pioneering spirit. The Likud government will call on the younger generation in Israel and the dispersions to settle and help every group and individual in the task of inhabiting and cultivating the wasteland, while taking care not to dispossess anyone.
This is why claims that "river to the sea" has nuances is so abhorrent. It is genocidal in nature no matter who uses it or the person's misguided intent. It has always mean freedom / sovereignty at the expense of another people. Nationalism is not a good thing. Palestine cannot be free without eradication of Israel and the return to a Mandatory Palestine. This means removing a significant number of Jews from Mandatory Palestine borders, and the PLO was founded to eradicate Israel and bring back Mandatory Palestine borders as a Palestine nation (a one state solution). The Likud party wants total sovereignty from the sea to the Jordan, and to this day still are rumours they played part in the assassination of Rabin, at at time we came closest to a two state solution.
This is also why I have issues with posters trying to take a one side approach to the conflict to show constant outrage that neglects or ignores certain aspects of the conflict. Palestinians in large numbers support Hamas, and look the other way to their atrocities including Oct 7. Israelis in large numbers have voted not only for the Likud party but now have a coalition with further extreme right elements and given them a mandate. Both current governments want to eradicate the other and are not looking for a peaceful two state solution where both can co-exist. The PLO was founded via the Arab League to eradicate Israel and return Mandatory Palestine. Even back in 1947-48 where Arab League nations converged to eradicate the newly formed Israel, there were many atrocities and massacres were commited by the Yishuv militia on Arab civilians.
By only focusing on one side to show just how bad that side really is, dismisses half of the geopolitical conflict to fuel a false narrative of the conflict. Palestinians sees their cause as righteous, Israelis sees their cause as righteous.
October 7 was not only supported by Palestinians, but there is evidence supporting Palestinian civilians took part in a 2nd wave of hostage taking (Noah for example).
Meanwhile, I have seen gruesome videos of Israeli soldiers torturing and killing Gaza civilians, laughing at the destruction of homes, kicking and laughing at dead bodies, sniping women with children waving a white flag. Israel soldiers shooting 3 Israeli hostages waving a white flag after being told to step forward shows this as a systemic issue, not an exception. For source, there are several subreddits documenting the war (/r/themajorityreport ). Israel has an overwhelming military advantage and has been overzealously bombing targets way beyond necessary (the insane use of 2000 lbs bombs in densely populated areas) that would make Putin blush. Israel making concerted efforts to minimize casualties is a bit of a false narrative.
While I don't agree with everything stated in this John Oliver dialogue, I do feel it's a must watch especially when talking of Netanyahu's current coalition government. Worth a full watch by everyone.
There is no winner here, and why I don't post here or engage as there are too many posting in bad faith or with dubious intent where a real discussion can occur. I am hoping we see a bit less finger pointing and narrative building that is unnecessary as this conflict will not be resolved on a forum. I do think US needs to give an ultimatum to Israel, especially after the latest response, even if they support the state.
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To be clear, both sides are monstrous, and I only single out Israel because so many actually believe them to not be monstrous, and to only be on the innocent defense. They also have far far more capabilities, and I have a lot of sympathy for the Gazans who have spent their lives being raised in such conditions, those perpetuated by the conflict.
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Hamas is putting pressure on Israel to stop the war altogether but without any guarantee that the group is going to stop its armed actions.
I’m not sure that will work.
Ok, you guys stop all activities of aggression and we might release the hostages. After you stop, we will continue to fire missiles into your cities though, do we have a deal?
