The ongoing financial turmoil and financial discussion thread

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by Dan02

Interesting as to why you think that, every source i've been able to find on the internet including the UAW website suggests that the American automakers do indeed have profit sharing plans with the union, however, I cannot find specifics as to what they are.

This comes off the UAW website in regards to their 2007 contract with Ford.

haha, maybe it has been so long since the domestics made enough money that profit sharing is not even mentioned? They might get it though, I do not know for sure?

I DO know that the American import manufacturers pay healthy profit sharing though.


One other thing that is hard to seperate is the role parts manufacturing has in wages. One plant may be doing more work in house while the other is doing less. One plant may have half the work done in Mexico outside the UAW umbrella (like Ford) while the other is aiming to make as much of the car in the country of consumption as possible (like Toyota aims to). Toyota may be supporting more American workers outside their plants also making $45/hr while Ford may be supporting a bunch of $8/hr workers in Mexico. Neither is better then as money is just spread around differently, but the employee costs come closer to matching each other and the probem again centers on making cars that people want.

IF GM had Toyota's management, business philosophy and line-up of cars and trucks they would not be losing money this year. Well, if you could subtract the carrying cost of covering all the past mistakes/debts of management... but the point is the same.



Claeren.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Claeren

Neither is better then, but the costs come closer to matching each other and the probem again ceners on making cars that people want.

Making cars people want might be half the battle but the other half is price, otherwise Kia wouldn't exist

[corporatejay]

Couldn't you also argue that rig workers make a lot of money because the companies they work for also make a lot of money?

does it make sense that a corporation losing billions a year v. a company making billions a year is paying their employees the same wage?

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Couldn't you also argue that rig workers make a lot of money because the companies they work for also make a lot of money?

does it make sense that a corporation losing billions a year v. a company making billions a year is paying their employees the same wage?

But up until the last 2 months demand for cars has been high - just not Big3 cars.

Imagine an oil company last year losing money due to bad management (while well run peers made billions) and then blaming all of the field employees (who have been working hard doing their job) and demanding wage cuts!?

The Big3 have been blaming the workers for years while the imports have made billions and grown and grown. If they had done a good job with innovative management concepts, vehicle development and market practices before and only now there was a market problem then the Union would likely talk about how to help, but you can only go that route soo many times before it just looks like you are out of ideas.

Alberta unions are a perfect example. In the 1990's wages were reduced across the board due to a spiraling provincial deficit and a desire to get the books balanced. Unions cooperated (without giving away everything) with government and a deal was struck. That worked then, but if you went to them now those unions would (rightfully) demand a fair wage for the work of their employees.


Just don't underestimate the auto-workers themselves. They are not stupid people, they are just like you and I. If presented with a reasonable case and a plan that looks like it would work they would go with it - just like you or I would. But maybe just maybe they have heard it all and have a different perspective than those of us far from the centre of the situation? Just like you know your industry's little nuances more than outsiders? Their stance on issues may appear outwardly different than the motives for it would indicate.

I bet you would willingly take a pay cut from a brilliant boss with a plan than you would from a brutally stupid boss without one other than to come back again next year for another pay cut?




Claeren.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Dan02

Thats interesting because no where in my example did i say anything about floor sweepers. I'm confused as how you putting words in my mouth makes me look silly.

Oil workers get paid as much as they do because of 4 reasons, that kind of work doesn't appeal to alot of people regardless of wage. It is extremely physically demanding, you're working in the middle of bum**** no where, exposed to the elements and finally the hours are worse then shift work, not at all comparable to working on the assembly line.

These numbers come from Forbes, in terms of total compensation, feel free to dispute them. I cannot vouch for their accuracy other then the source they came from.



Bottem line, union workers at the American autoworkers are overpaid and an example of how unions can be detrimental in todays society. If the American auto companies want to be viable long term they need to bring their labour costs inline with their competitors.

Those values are crap for Canada. I know people who work at the St.Thomas Assembly plant, and their wage is NOTHING near that. There are lots of issues with the C.A.W., but those figures are not representative.

Here is the Payscale.com page for Ford Motor Company http://www.payscale.com/research/US/...ny/Hourly_Rate
Not one is even 1/2 the values you quoted. And saying "You can't vouch for their accuracy" is a cop out. If you want to use them to prove a point then you need better facts than that.

[Bill Bumface]

I don't own one, but I'd be sad to see GM go. They've been getting closer and closer to turning the corner with their products in the last couple years. I know that recently they also accounted for 1% of the US GDP. It's not small potatoes to just let that go.

Apparently the new Malibu is actually a good car, the Opel's they've brought over and rebadged as Saturns are good cars and same with the Holden (Pontiac G8 GT). Corvettes have been the best performance cars in the world since the C6 came out. It would be sad if the Chevy Volt doesn't make it to production as a 2010 model. That is one car that could actually change the auto industry, and the one car that GM was putting all it's bets on for a turnaround.

[Table 5]

I've driven the Malibu, and it was actually a pretty decent car. I'll never been a fan of the plastic-look of all American cars, but they are definitely better to drive than 5 years ago.

[Table 5]

Looks like AIG had another junket again at a fancy hotel...this time in secret, lol.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/WallStreet/story?id=6230818&page=1

This one seems to be a little more legit than the others, but still, these guys should know not to hold these things at a place that is anything but a motel 6.

[missdpuck]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I've driven the Malibu, and it was actually a pretty decent car. I'll never been a fan of the plastic-look of all American cars, but they are definitely better to drive than 5 years ago.

I rented an Impala for 2 weeks and it was pretty cool too.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by fotze

I haven't checked in a while but I don't believe rig workers make in the $70/hr range. I think the large money is from overtime and the amount of hours, with no vacation time. The key is that most rig workers do not stay rig workers for very long, only a few stay on long enough to make there way up the ladder.

Also "rig workers" are a very small percentage of people employed by the upstream petroleum industry. They are actually a small percentage of the people employed when drilling the well. there are truck drivers who haul in and out the equipment the fluids, the casing guys, the cementing guys, the mud guys, the safety guys, the survey guys, the lease construction guys, the enviro guys, the directiona drillers, etc. The rig workers are the ones most likely making the least of all of the above. Not sure this analogy tells anyone anything, TBQH. Then you consider the oil sands workers whgo do make insane dollars. The oil sands world has far more in common with the mining industry than the oil/gas industry and I don't know why it doesn't get lumped in there.

The thing is most auto workers stay in the position for long periods of time, most rig workers can't run the fata away fast enough even with the decent pay. That is more telling than any anecdotes on working conditions.

Oilsands isnt really where the crazy money is made, atleast not the construction side. Most of the projects pay their craft workers CLAC rates. Operations people might make decent money, but they also live in camps and are on long shifts that really make things almost prison like. Also most new oilsands projects are SAGD, there wont be a lot of future mining projects given the nature of the resource, and stigma involved with strip mining.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Claeren

If the people running the big3 had not been such horrible business people the last 25 year, taking their market dominance and customer loyalty for granted, no one would be in this situation.

The problem is not with wages, the problem is with the product and the management that dictates what that product should be.


Oh yeah, because they are managed by world class leaders who are driven to meet their customers needs.


I am not a fan of unions at all but I hate crappy management getting blamed on employees even more....


Claeren.

I was chatting about this with my uncle and he made a pretty good point... The difference between the big three and the import companies is that the import companies have been developing their fuel efficient vehicles and their hybrids and the big 3 have been making ever larger vehicles.
I mean, WTF is with the Hummer? As a personal road vehicle? Who the hell needs a Hummer?
Well, I guess there was a market for it, or else GM wouldn't have gone and made it available.
Funny thing is, now who's laughing? Toyota was busy building a hybrid. Toyota made money when the price of oil went up. GM is in the toilet.

Of course, the other side of this is that the unions fight every move the big 3 attempt to make. In a sick, perverted way, I'm almost cheering for the demise of GM so that those union bozos can hit the unemployment line after choking the life out of their own employer.
And it punishes lazy executives as well. As Claren already pointed out, they have been taking their customer loyalty and market dominance for granted for a long time.
Too bad that there'll be serious collateral damage in the form of front line staff and mechanics at dealerships, and all the shock waves that the sudden void of GM will cause. Hell, all the way down to delivery drivers that bring parts to dealerships from other stores...

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Those values are crap for Canada. I know people who work at the St.Thomas Assembly plant, and their wage is NOTHING near that. There are lots of issues with the C.A.W., but those figures are not representative.

Here is the Payscale.com page for Ford Motor Company http://www.payscale.com/research/US/...ny/Hourly_Rate
Not one is even 1/2 the values you quoted. And saying "You can't vouch for their accuracy" is a cop out. If you want to use them to prove a point then you need better facts than that.

you're clearly not reading the whole thread.

The "wage" numbers you quote are the hourly dollar wage they recieve, the numbers that I posted was their compensation including pensions/medical benefits/vacation/holdiays.

We've already discussed and agreed their wage isn't the problem, it's the benefits that are absurd.

Furthermore the numbers we've been discussing have come from the UAW rather then the CAW, with universal health care in Canada it is unlikely the numbers are as high.

[Claeren]

^ And in fairness virtually all American employers (and citizens in general!) have been feeling pressured by skyrocketing healthcare costs. It is not just the auto industry.

It is just more noticeable in the auto industry because they compete more directly with other first world nation manufacturers in a very globalized sector of the economy where most/all of those other nations have universal healthcare and/or associated costs generally under control. Even here in Canada, where costs have risen dramatically, it is still largely because of spillage from the American healthcare sector being so out of control.




Claeren.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Looks like AIG had another junket again at a fancy hotel...this time in secret, lol.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/WallStreet/story?id=6230818&page=1

This one seems to be a little more legit than the others, but still, these guys should know not to hold these things at a place that is anything but a motel 6.

Sometimes, I really hate AIG.

I was origanally a supporter of the $700B bailout package because I thought it was important to free up credit for business to run. However, the corruption and secrecy about who gets these bailouts when its the taxpayers footing the bill is really frustrating.

If I had any say, no more bailouts - no more for AIG, or GM or Ford.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Dan02

you're clearly not reading the whole thread.

The "wage" numbers you quote are the hourly dollar wage they recieve, the numbers that I posted was their compensation including pensions/medical benefits/vacation/holdiays.

We've already discussed and agreed their wage isn't the problem, it's the benefits that are absurd.

Furthermore the numbers we've been discussing have come from the UAW rather then the CAW, with universal health care in Canada it is unlikely the numbers are as high.

Sure I read the thread. and thanks for being condescending. I also saw people ask about those amounts and you confirm them.

Originally Posted by Azure

Are those the wage figures for the union workers for each company?

Originally Posted by Dan02

Those numbers are for UAW employees and include hourly wages and benefits.

Originally Posted by Azure

Wow.

So even though the there was a determination later on that it was more of a management issue than an union/labour issue, this is still information that is misleading. The numbers I posted ARE the FORD USA numbers. And while the Canadian contracts are different, it would take a heck of a health plan to double that amount. As far as my friends, they have had over 2 months laid off this year. There are lots of issues with the unions. More than enough that they are definitely not helping the issues.

And getting back to GM - the 2008 Chevy Cobalt SS sounds like it is quite the performer. http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...s/4254059.html

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

And getting back to GM - the 2008 Chevy Cobalt SS sounds like it is quite the performer. http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...s/4254059.html

Yup, it's the fastest FF car in the world. It beats the 350Z along with many other "track cars" around the Nurburgring. It's beating it's competition in most of the reviews.

The problem is that is the low volume seller. The regular Cobalt isn't up to par with the competition. GM has great performance cars, but they need the improvements to trickle down to the 'normal' cars.

It's happened in the CTS. The CTS-V is getting amazing reviews, even Jeremy Clarkson a notorious American car hater said the CTS-V is better than the M5 (which costs significatnly more). The base CTS is getting amazing reviews as well, and having drive one as a rental, it's definitely the best American car I've ever been in. The interior would shock you.

Unfortunately it looks like they might be too late. Pity.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Sometimes, I really hate AIG.

I was origanally a supporter of the $700B bailout package because I thought it was important to free up credit for business to run. However, the corruption and secrecy about who gets these bailouts when its the taxpayers footing the bill is really frustrating.

If I had any say, no more bailouts - no more for AIG, or GM or Ford.

Thing is, the government created this mess in the first place, or had a hand in it at least. But, they shouldn't be bailing out all these companies.

I'm trying to figure out where the next $2 trillion is supposed to come from. And what if it gets worse, and the bailout costs goes up to $5 trillion? Why should the taxpayers have to foot that bill?

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Sure I read the thread. and thanks for being condescending.

talk about pot calling the kettle black there...

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm trying to figure out where the next $2 trillion is supposed to come from.

from the Epson!

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Azure

Thing is, the government created this mess in the first place, or had a hand in it at least. But, they shouldn't be bailing out all these companies.

I'm trying to figure out where the next $2 trillion is supposed to come from. And what if it gets worse, and the bailout costs goes up to $5 trillion? Why should the taxpayers have to foot that bill?

Well after some digging, from what I can tell, sort of just "make it up" (RE: $2T) ... and hope to pay it back in the future, or never and just keep gliding through life letting the debt snowball. As a result, taxpayers are footing the bill by our generations and future generations to try and struggle to pay off the interest to these debts that is getting to the point where they'll never pay them off, and struggle just to pay the interest - a scary proposition for a band-aid fix.

We're not just talking about paper loses here that you can keep throwing money at, circa 1987 or 1999 (I think I got those years right, +/- a year) ... we're in a full fledge recession that can't be fixed by the government throwing the future away for attempted/failure propositions. Paul Krugman gave a very good 1 hr explanation that can be found on Youtube about this.

To me, we're already in teh "what if it gets worse" because this is Round 2 for GM in the past half decade which was a couple billion. I read somewhere the bailouts given this year are on the other side of $2 trillion.

A billion here, a few trillion there, sooner or later, we're going to be talking about real money.