2006 Blue Jays Thread - Page 24 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

JiriHrdina · 08-21-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

Lilly was wrong to argue with Gibbons on the mound but the manager should not follow the pitcher into the clubhouse looking for a fight. The Jays will not be a true contender until they find a manager that can lead them. This is the 2nd player that Gibbons has or wanted to fight in less then 2 months.

I agree in general with your thoughts but I don't think that their inability to be a true contedor has much to do with Gibbons. The team has played well this season and if they had any kind of 4 and 5 starter they would be in the race. I don't think you can blame Gibbons for the team's inability to compete for post-season spot this season.

Jiggy_12 · 08-21-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habernac

How did he ream him out? He told him to give him the ball. Lilly is the whiny bitch who made the scene. And when you give up that many runs in an inning, you deserve the hook. Suck it up and walk off the mound. Not Gibby's fault at all.

I didn't see the game, I was just going by what was written in an article I read. I guess its a little misleading.

"Gibbons appeared to chew Lilly out, who began shouting back and refused to hand over the ball"

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/news_story/?ID=174936&hubname=

Flickered Flame · 08-21-2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I agree in general with your thoughts but I don't think that their inability to be a true contedor has much to do with Gibbons. The team has played well this season and if they had any kind of 4 and 5 starter they would be in the race. I don't think you can blame Gibbons for the team's inability to compete for post-season spot this season.

Grant, I would agree with the #4-5 starter comment, however he has over used his bullpen, I believe only the Rangers go to the pen more then the Jays. I would guess that probably cost the games upwards of 5 games maybe more this season. Its obvious he is losing control of his players.

JiriHrdina · 08-21-2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

I didn't see the game, I was just going by what was written in an article I read. I guess its a little misleading.

"Gibbons appeared to chew Lilly out, who began shouting back and refused to hand over the ball"

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/news_story/?ID=174936&hubname=

You can check out the video here: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/a...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

JiriHrdina · 08-21-2006, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

Grant, I would agree with the #4-5 starter comment, however he has over used his bullpen, I believe only the Rangers go to the pen more then the Jays. I would guess that probably cost the games upwards of 5 games maybe more this season. Its obvious he is losing control of his players.

I agree with the latter - losing control of his players, but not the former. The reason why he has overworked his bullpen is that his starters haven't gone deep enough consistently enough. Basically the rotation has been 2 starters short for almost the entire year. Tough not to over work the pen when you've got guys like Markham, Towers and Jansen getting lit up every 4th and 5th day.

Footscray · 08-21-2006, 08:48 PM

They just don't seem to have a good clubhouse dynamic for some reason. Wells is supposed to be the leader but seems to stay out of these sort of conflicts which either says that the manager is too extreme for him to back or Wells is gutless, having good player leadership is almost as vital as a good manager.

JiriHrdina · 08-21-2006, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Footscray

They just don't seem to have a good clubhouse dynamic for some reason. Wells is supposed to be the leader but seems to stay out of these sort of conflicts which either says that the manager is too extreme for him to back or Wells is gutless, having good player leadership is almost as vital as a good manager.

I've never bought Wells as a leader. He doesn't seem intense enough for me. The true leaders of the team in my view are guys like Zaun, as well as Halliday, probably Glaus now and a few others.

Moreover, how can Wells be a leader of the team when he won't even come out and express a desire to stay in Toronto.

Footscray · 08-21-2006, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I've never bought Wells as a leader. He doesn't seem intense enough for me. The true leaders of the team in my view are guys like Zaun, as well as Halliday, probably Glaus now and a few others.

Moreover, how can Wells be a leader of the team when he won't even come out and express a desire to stay in Toronto.

He's definately not a good leader but the younger players like Rios seem to look to him, it would be nice to see him standing up to the prima donnas taking on the manager or even standing up to Gibbons if the entire room has problems with him, pulling the team together one way or another because if they are ever going to win anything somebody has to do it. Zaun has been kneecapped by Molina coming in and Glaus is good and seems like a decent guy but has been there half a season. Halliday perhaps but it's tough for a non-everyday to do something like that. Johnson seems like the right guy for the job but is relatively quiet.

habernac · 08-21-2006, 09:30 PM

both were just interviewed on the TV and said it was much ado about nothing. It was verbal, bith said some things, they're fine now.

KootenayFlamesFan · 08-22-2006, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

You can check out the video here: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/a...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Missed the game tonight, but watching that video..........what the hell is Lilly doing?

You come out, pitch like garbage, you will get yanked. Nothing new, nothing shocking. I don't understand what he was so ****ed about. Your team gives you an 8-0 lead, you would like to think your starting pitcher can give you a decent start and get you somewhat deep into the game.

Get rid of that idiot.........good riddance. Start pitching well and earn your money and quit acting like a complete baby out there.

Can hardly wait for next year........if JP finally gets some pitching, that is.

JiriHrdina · 08-22-2006, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Missed the game tonight, but watching that video..........what the hell is Lilly doing?

You come out, pitch like garbage, you will get yanked. Nothing new, nothing shocking. I don't understand what he was so ****ed about. Your team gives you an 8-0 lead, you would like to think your starting pitcher can give you a decent start and get you somewhat deep into the game.

Get rid of that idiot.........good riddance. Start pitching well and earn your money and quit acting like a complete baby out there.

Can hardly wait for next year........if JP finally gets some pitching, that is.

I think they are basically a #3 away from having a solid rotation next season.
1- Doc
2- Burnett (who has looked great as of late)
3 - ??
4- Chacin
5 - One of Towers (still under contract for next year and will get a chance to win the job in camp), Markham, Jansen, McGowen.

But...that's only a solid rotation IF, they stay healthy which was the problem this year. A team like the Jays simply doesn't have a margin for error when it comes to losing any of their starters...which makes it tough.

Ultimately I do think VW will be dealt this off-season and it will be for pitching so that might solve it right there.

calculoso · 08-22-2006, 09:16 AM

Interesting that Hinske was traded over the weekend to the RedSox. Wonder what they got back...

Bobblehead · 08-22-2006, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calculoso

Interesting that Hinske was traded over the weekend to the RedSox. Wonder what they got back...

Alson interesting that they are still paying a good chunk of his salary.

Lilly is frustrating.
He can pitch like a champ one game and do nothing the next. He's a veteran, he should know when he doesn't have it, and it's fine not to want to be pulled, but don't show up the skipper on the mound.

Holy shades of Boomer v Cito

RedHot25 · 08-22-2006, 11:09 AM

Now Gibbons says that he "overreacted" - http://tsn.ca/mlb/news_story/?ID=174969&hubname=

Yikes, sorry for the Jays. This season seemed to bring a bit of a somewhat renewed sense of optimism, and then you have the Shea thing, the Wells thing (does he stay or does he go? does he want to stay or want to go), the Lilly thing, Burnett barely pitching for a long time and some people calling that into question......ouch.

Flickered Flame · 08-22-2006, 11:30 AM

I think a bigger issue now becomes, with this image surrounding the organization Gibbons fighting with players, which free agents are really going to be interested in signing with the Jays in the offseason if the same manager is leading the team.

JiriHrdina · 08-22-2006, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

I think a bigger issue now becomes, with this image surrounding the organization Gibbons fighting with players, which free agents are really going to be interested in signing with the Jays in the offseason if the same manager is leading the team.

A valid concern. The Jays already have to overpay to get players signed...having this type of clown show going on certianly doesn't help.

jam26 · 08-22-2006, 11:46 AM

I was at the game last night and it was one of the most bizarre scenes I've witnessed at a ball game. Some of the other players were disgusted as well as there were towels being thrown, etc. after the brouhaha in the dugout.
I like Gibbons but I think he' s lost control of the team and will have to be let go.

flambers · 08-22-2006, 04:18 PM

In my opinion JP has to fire Gibbons. This last scene is totally un-acceptable from a Manager of a team. No player will want to sign with the Jays with this type of crap going on.

I hope JP fires him right away but knowing the Jays JP will do nothing. What a mess.

Flickered Flame · 08-22-2006, 04:35 PM

I tuned into the fan 590 in Toronto for most of the afternoon and most of the callers (fans) want both JP and Gibbons gone. Lilly at this point doesn't matter to the fans because he is a free agent at the end of the year and its unlikely he would be brought back.

flambers · 08-22-2006, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

I tuned into the fan 590 in Toronto for most of the afternoon and most of the callers (fans) want both JP and Gibbons gone. Lilly at this point doesn't matter to the fans because he is a free agent at the end of the year and its unlikely he would be brought back.

Yah, I would be okay with both of them getting fired.