[Rumour] Francis: All contract talks on hold for Flames

[TenaciousC]

Sorry but in what world has Hanifin earned a contract to the likes of Devon Toews, who was a stalwart on the top pairing of a cup winning team who neutralized McDavid and Draisaitl. Hanifin has proven that he is not a big time player, more a 2nd pairing guy.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Lol he said no to that offer? Thank ####

I mean, he decided he's not sure he wants to commit to 8 years in Calgary if we're about to rebuild.

I'm not sure I would be eager to stay if I was in that position. He'll still get paid by someone as a UFA if it comes to that.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by TenaciousC

Sorry but in what world has Hanifin earned a contract to the likes of Devon Toews, who was a stalwart on the top pairing of a cup winning team who neutralized McDavid and Draisaitl. Hanifin has proven that he is not a big time player, more a 2nd pairing guy.

Toews signed @ 7×7.25.

If Hanifin was asking 7.5+, then thats a no go. He's a #3 on this team and would probably be a #4 on a contender. That's not worth 7.5.

[Spurs]

I think there is a discussion to be had that Hanifin in a vacuum is worth that deal based on his age and ability. What I don't see is how that deal makes any sense for the Flames with the way the team is playing, the way the team is constructed with other deals and the absolute lack of talent this team has going forward.

Hanifin is a fine player but not a guy that likely moves the needle enough that teams are going to be willing to give up a ton for a guy locked in that long to that value. So it would add another deal that we are unlikely to be able to move, at least for anything of value coming back to a team that is already lacking talent and really lacking the ability to move pieces.

Absolutely frustrating that they still are looking to make moves like this with this team.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Re: last slide

They are totally going to go after Duclair.

The only way to rescue this because we've gotten hitched to Huberdeau is find a way to change our team to match whatever style gave him success in the past.

That includes finding the right players to bring the best out of him. Currently the team has zero chemistry and without that, there's no value in individual skill. Jettison anyone that doesn't bring chemistry as this is a team sport.

We went from the consensus #1 first line in the league with Gaudreau, Lindholm, and Tkachuk playing together (why did they not figure that out until the LAST YEAR) to arguably the worst line in the league.

[Spurs]

Rescue it to what?

Let's say we bring Duclair in and Hubredeau goes back to close to what he was in Florida, what does that get us? 8th in the West? 3rd best in our division maybe?

I think that is the biggest problem we have now even with a good Hubredeau we are not close to competing with the top teams in the league there are way too many holes elsewhere as well.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Spurs

Rescue it to what?

Let's say we bring Duclair in and Hubredeau goes back to close to what he was in Florida, what does that get us? 8th in the West? 3rd best in our division maybe?

I think that is the biggest problem we have now even with a good Hubredeau we are not close to competing with the top teams in the league there are way too many holes elsewhere as well.

Turning a player who isn't productive for his cost, back into a player who is productive, is a good move. Full stop. Even if you want nothing but a full tear down.

A more productive Huberdeau is a more valuable asset.

[Locke]

I think its important to remember that even if we give Hanifin $7.5...and even if, for argument's sake he's worth it? This team sucks.

Whats the point?

Let someone else pay him. He's not moving this team's needle.

Ditto Lindholm and ditto Kadri. We're likely stuck with Huberdeau and unfortunately it looks like we've doomed Weegar.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Turning a player who isn't productive for his cost, back into a player who is productive, is a good move. Full stop. Even if you want nothing but a full tear down.

A more productive Huberdeau is a more valuable asset.

I think the asset ship has sailed. Even if he were to improve with Duclair coming in the number of teams that could afford him is small, the number of teams that would want to add any player at that salary, length and age is even smaller if not zero.

Cap space is so valuable now I can't see teams being fooled into thinking a 30+ year old HUbredeau for 8 years and 10+ million is worth adding to their team.

[TheScorpion]

If the Flames were actually offering Hanifin that much, they might just be beyond saving. That's unbelievable.

[Locke]

He said 'No' to $7.5?

Cool. Theres the door.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Locke

He said 'No' to $7.5?

Cool. Theres the door.

It's like Elias saying 'No' to $8.75M to $9M and holding at $9.3M.

They clearly don't want to be here with offers like those not being signed.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

It's like Elias saying 'No' to $8.75M to $9M and holding at $9.3M.

They clearly don't want to be here with offers like those not being signed.

They're not going to make the Flames competitive. So dont lock in to more big contracts. Thats insane.

If we're going to suck anyways, lets suck on the cheap.

[OILFAN #81]

I honestly think Hanifin wants to play on an American team.
I know there were rumblings about it in the past but I wouldn’t be surprised if he signs with an American team in the summer and then later on says things like Tkachuk did.

[TenaciousC]

Originally Posted by OILFAN #81

I honestly think Hanifin wants to play on an American team.
I know there were rumblings about it in the past but I wouldn’t be surprised if he signs with an American team in the summer and then later on says things like Tkachuk did.

Good riddance. I feel quite confident after watching Hanifin for 6 years that any team relying on this guy in tough games is going to be sorely disappointed.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Whatever route the Flames go, I just hope they don’t allow their young draft picks to dictate the culture of the team. The Oilers screwed up bad because they let Hall, Eberle and Yakupov become the culture setters, so there was no accountability and the laziness/losing culture set in. Never let losing and laziness be ok, especially to the drivers of the team. This can poison the well and whatever new pick ups come along the way, they’ll just accept the losing culture as well.

Those guys didn't dictate anything, they are wide eyed junior players that were playing I solid, structured junior environments, and their draft status reflected how well they did in said envrironment.

Then they get to the Oilers, and instsntly told by Lowe that the rules don't apply to them because they are top skilled players, so "just play" and suddenly these talented players, including Yakupov, were told to go out and just play an NHL game they had never played before because the President told them so and he also told the coaches as much.

Basically from a structured setup and 1st overall pick to, "do as you feel"and you're on your own.

Additionally, because of this behind the scenes ####show of double standards, no reliable and bonfide leasership vets stayed long enough to waste their time dealing with the circus, so the young guys had to again, spend crucial development years with instead worrying about.figuring things out, with way way way too much responsibility and expectations and no mentoring.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

If the Flames were actually offering Hanifin that much, they might just be beyond saving. That's unbelievable.

Yeah you have to be a little concerned when you hear that.

When Conroy draws up a projected lineup for the Flames, how does he slot in Hanifin at 7.5+ and envisions a contending team?

They do have a problem with only 2 signed D for next year. A top 3 of Rasmus, Weegar and Hanifin is I suppose respectable. But it’s not winning you anything unless you are above average in other places.

Who actually will play on the back end next year? I hope whatever UFA’s are brought in will be paid big $’s, short term.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Every team in the NHL comes down to two categories:


1) Well-managed
2) Poorly-managed


I will argue until I am blue in the face that NO TEAM should be trying to rebuild unless they have been extremely poorly managed. A rebuild is basically just rolling over on your back and giving up. It only happens not because of any natural cycle. It happens because whomever was in charge made a series of wrong decisions that either:
a) forced you into a rebuild as no other legitimate avenue of improvement exists
b) you are still being mismanaged and the guy in charge doesn't know what else to do


I get what Philly06 is saying, but I do think it is a textbook argument for not being able to see the forest for the trees.



Edmonton, Buffalo and Arizona had failed rebuilds not because rebuilds don't work, but because they were poorly managed teams.


Chicago - rebuild #1 was a disaster, and that was under an owner that didn't care, and incompetent management. Rebuild #2 was Stanley Cups.


Tampa Baby - they rebuilt two different teams that won cups, and were championship-calibre teams for a while in both cases.


The list is as long as the drafts have happened for that fit both arguments of "Rebuilds Good vs Rebuilds Bad". There are well-managed teams, and poorly managed teams, and that's the closest you get to a guarantee of any outcome.


I will further make the argument that will not be well received - the Flames outside of Cliff Fletcher's tenure, possibly some of Al Coates' tenure (environment counts for something!), and the first 3 years of Darryl Sutter's tenure, the Flames have been badly managed. The results speak for themselves. There are various grades of poorly managed of course, as well as different areas in which they were poorly managed, but overall, the lack of success is a sure sign of a poorly managed team, regardless of what philosophy they employ.


I would add that Whiteout's point about Treliving being a mediocre GM can't be turned into a positive. Just because Treliving was not bad, it doesn't mean then that the logic shifts to mediocrity = good! No, Treliving sunk this rebuild. At no point did this team compete for the cup, came close to competing for the cup, nor even a threat to compete for the cup. Not being a perennial playoff team eliminates you from that category right away. Getting bounced in the first round usually when you do make it eliminates you from that category too. Getting rocked in both appearances in the 2nd round tells you that too.


I actually wrote a lengthy post stating my opinion on why I think the Flames were a very poorly managed team under Treliving, but it is all stuff that has been hashed out many times on this forum through the years, and I think at this stage, you either like the work he did, or you didn't, and my post won't do a thing to change your mind.

All I can say is that I look at this poorly constructed team that is a complete mish-mash of parts, and think that this is 99% Treliving's team, PERIOD.



This team has been poorly managed because you are either rebuilding, or you are building around what you already have. What do the Flames have? 30 year old Huberdeau that has looked like a replacement-level player, and now 2 coaches have stapled to the bench in the last 2 minutes of a game when they were down a goal? Lindholm who is suddenly showing why Carolina was at a contract impasse with, raising questions about perhaps not being the calibre of centre that can lead a team anywhere, and looking like he greatly misses Gaudreau? Kadri, who is 33 years old?


Who are you building around now moving forward? Who is the 'core'? Who are your franchise players? Who are your difference makers on a nightly basis (or at least, regular basis)?



Maybe I am being negative, but I just don't see it. The team doesn't really have a core any longer, it doesn't have those clutch difference makers, or franchise players. I mean, who is the shoe-in to send to the all-star game this year?



I like the prospect pool a lot, but there is no future core there. You hope that there is a piece or two, but the Flames right now haven't drafted a core group to win with that is coming up through the pipe. They have drafted a good mix of replacement players who will bring new life and support the future core, and that's VERY important as you don't want to start "Pulling a Treliving" and start overpaying for depth players on the UFA market, crippling your ability to sign your important core players to extensions (cough Tkachuk, cough).


I am 100% not negative on the team overall, however. I quite enjoyed the game earlier. Play that way, and there is ZERO reason for boos. Play that way, even without winning, and I will support them (though I am an idiot in a way since I always support them no matter what).



I think this team's best option is to rebuild, because even though I consider it one of the NHL's better drafting teams, they don't have a core to build around any longer - there are no franchise players on this team to build around. You can't get luck and expect to draft a Gaudreau, Brodie, Wolf (though to be fair, he is TBD, but looking like a core piece), sign an undrafted Giordano, Fox (and have him sign) etc., every year. This team needs an influx of core-type prospects because it doesn't have a core.


That's why I think a rebuild has become a necessity, and it is due to mismanagement. I don't think you can slow build this by having a 'compete now' mindset any longer. This organization certainly can't attract enough high-level core pieces to fix it, though that adds a lot of long term risk as well, and doesn't allow for a longer window since they will be 27 years old+ for the most part.



I do believe that this team can do a successful rebuild as drafting and development is this organization's biggest strength, and it doesn't have to last 5+ years. They have a good prospect pool, they just need lots of bullets (and the higher the better). Wait a few more season to rebuild, and I think you end up having a completely forced rebuild and now you are solidly in the group with Edmonton, Arizona and Buffalo in terms of mismanaged. It will take a long time to rise from those ashes.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

If the Flames were actually offering Hanifin that much, they might just be beyond saving. That's unbelievable.

I don’t even know if there’s an appropriate word to describe it. If Conroy hadn’t had Lindholm and Hanifin essentially save him from himself, we’d be paying them $16 million for 8 years on top of our current situation.

Like, that’s not even dodging a bullet. That’s playing a game of Russian roulette against your own crotch.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Locke

Hanifin and Lindholm...buh bye!

Retain some salary and package Kadri with one of them and get whoever isnt busy to drive them to the Airport.

What team has the cap space to take on Kadri and one of the other two?

No real need to discuss who would want to do that.