“Athletes are heroes of Russia, and (Putin) wants them to support his regime,” Roenick said. “If you don’t, you subject yourself to political hatred, to attacks and to not knowing whether you and your family are safe. That is what Panarin is going through now."
Copied and pasted from the first result when you Google virtue signaliing definition.
"The public expression of opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or social conscience or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue"
But carry on.
Interesting. Let's compare that with what you typed earlier...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groot
Making comments in public or on social media that demonstrates one's good character or social conscience is the literal definition of virtue signaling.
Notice the difference... the word intended (which you left out for some reason)... is important here. For virtue signalling to have taken place, comments must have been made for the purpose of presenting one's self in a particular way. None of my comments here were made for that purpose. And I don't think anyone else's comments here were either. People are just sharing their views on the topic, nothing more, nothing less.
If we were to go with the broader definition you typed, it would mean that any time anyone shares their opinion on anything, it could be considered virtue signaling.
Interesting. Let's compare that with what you typed earlier...
Notice the difference... the word intended (which you left out for some reason)... is important here. For virtue signalling to have taken place, comments must have been made for the purpose of presenting one's self in a particular way. None of my comments here were made for that purpose. And I don't think anyone else's comments here were either. People are just sharing their views on the topic, nothing more, nothing less.
If we were to go with the broader definition you typed, it would mean that any time anyone shares their opinion on anything, it could be considered virtue signaling.
It comes across as virtue signalling because your view of Ovechkin hanging as heavily on the profile photo he uses on one of his seldom-used social media profiles that he only posts on in Russian is absurd. I very much doubt anyone who actually believes that Ovechkin is committing a serious moral transgression would give a #### about one profile photo.
Combined with the immediate dismissal of things like supporting the invasion of Iraq, which (again) any person who actually takes issue with Ovechkin on moral grounds connected to the invasion of Ukraine should very naturally take issue with, it just comes off like virtue signalling.
You can be pedantic about the exact definition of it if you want, but it’s certainly hard to believe your position and the positions of some here (certainly not all) isn’t based on you thinking it’s the correct opinion to have rather than basing it on actual morals.
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I have to laugh at Gretzky's competition back in the day. I know he's the greatest of all time and certainly his edgework and passing were undoubtedly great but goaltending was in it's infancy at best, equipment was smaller, defenceman were smoking in intermissions, and the sport was treated as hobby by ownership and it cascaded down. Maybe this isn't the thread for this debate but today's players skills have gone up dramatically.
Video:
Spoiler!
Wow, watching that really puts it into perspective, it's like he's playing NHL '22 on rookie with all the CPU sliders set to minimum.
To be dominant in today's NHL is very different from being dominant in the era of Gretzky.
Wow, watching that really puts it into perspective, it's like he's playing NHL '22 on rookie with all the CPU sliders set to minimum.
To be dominant in today's NHL is very different from being dominant in the era of Gretzky.
People always reminisce about how 'Great' the game was back in the day. The battles of the 70s and the rivalries of the 80s!
Thats crap. A modern hockey fan probably couldnt sit through watching one of those games with their eyes taped open.
Its awful. Truly terrible stuff. I mean, in the first play on that video Gretzky circles around in place 3 times. If he tried that tomorrow against anyone he'd have been smoked so hard he wouldnt be able to find his eyeballs for a week.
When Gretzky set those records it was against plugs and slugs, Ovechkin is doing it against Elite athletes.
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People always reminisce about how 'Great' the game was back in the day. The battles of the 70s and the rivalries of the 80s!
Thats crap. A modern hockey fan probably couldnt sit through watching one of those games with their eyes taped open.
Its awful. Truly terrible stuff. I mean, in the first play on that video Gretzky circles around in place 3 times. If he tried that tomorrow against anyone he'd have been smoked so hard he wouldnt be able to find his eyeballs for a week.
When Gretzky set those records it was against plugs and slugs, Ovechkin is doing it against Elite athletes.
And small crappy goalies with heavy equipment when wet.
It comes across as virtue signalling because your view of Ovechkin hanging as heavily on the profile photo he uses on one of his seldom-used social media profiles that he only posts on in Russian is absurd. I very much doubt anyone who actually believes that Ovechkin is committing a serious moral transgression would give a #### about one profile photo.
My view of Ovechkin is based on the entirety of his friendly interactions with Putin since becoming an NHL player. In reality I want him to do much more than just change the profile photo, but also understand that it's not realistic to expect him to do anything beyond that due to family safety reasons. Maybe he can't do that either, but the mess he's in is due at least in part to his own decisions. Since becoming a multi-millionaire he has had ample opportunity to get his family out of Russia, yet they're still there.
Quote:
Combined with the immediate dismissal of things like supporting the invasion of Iraq,
The invasion of Iraq was one of the most egregious foreign policy blunders that any country has ever committed, and has had disastrous consequences. I am not dismissing it for a second. But it still doesn't rise to the level of what Putin has done in Ukraine. There are important differences between the two situations.
Quote:
You can be pedantic about the exact definition of it if you want,
Correcting a significant mischaracterization of something is not the same as being pedantic. He called something virtue signalling that in fact wasn't.
Quote:
its certainly hard to believe your position and the positions of some here (certainly not all) isnt based on you thinking its the correct opinion to have rather than basing it on actual morals.
There's been a misunderstanding then. This is not about pushing a "correct opinion" or anything like that. I'm simply sharing my view on the matter. Ultimately there's nothing morally wrong with cheering for Ovechkin to break the record. It's just not something I'm going to do.
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My view of Ovechkin is based on the entirety of his friendly interactions with Putin since becoming an NHL player.
And yet:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathgod
And the other thing is, I have yet to see any evidence that he's no longer pro-Putin. Removing that instagram photo and replacing it with something more recent would be that evidence that I'm looking for. Not some kind of big activism thing, just a simple basic gesture that shows he's no longer supporting that madman.
This entire part of the conversation and Groots main point was directed towards people who wanted him to change his profile photo. So the most logical retort would not have been to go on and defend why his profile photo is important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathgod
The invasion of Iraq was one of the most egregious foreign policy blunders that any country has ever committed, and has had disastrous consequences. I am not dismissing it for a second. But it still doesn't rise to the level of what Putin has done in Ukraine. There are important differences between the two situations.
None that youve spent any time naming. There are countless differences between the two, but when you boil it down to a moral objection? No, the differences arent really that important. Unless its better to kill innocent Iraqis than innocent Ukrainians or better to believe Americans when theyre lying about why theyre undertaking an illegal invasion than it is to believe Russians. You really dont think an American who supports his President believing in lies is similar to a Russian who supports his President believing in lies? I think theyre very similar.
[QUOTE=Mathgod;8551631]Correcting a significant mischaracterization of something is not the same as being pedantic. He called something virtue signalling that in fact wasn't.
Correct, but focusing on the wording of his definition was being pedantic. I think you well knew he meant the same thing you defined. You spent more time arguing why his definition of virtue signalling was wrong because he missed a word than actually identifying why the label itself was wrong. Thats being pedantic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathgod
There's been a misunderstanding then. This is not about pushing a "correct opinion" or anything like that. I'm simply sharing my view on the matter. Ultimately there's nothing morally wrong with cheering for Ovechkin to break the record. It's just not something I'm going to do.
Fair enough, but you can at least see the reason for the reaction, I hope. Nobody needs to like or dislike Ovechkin. Nobody needs to cheer for him to break the record or condemn him. People are free to do whichever, but I think theres just some people growing tired of people coming into a thread where the entire purpose is following him on his way to the record just to virtue signal about his profile photo or how awful he is for previously supporting Putin. Meanwhile the last thing Ovechkin said was that he doesnt want war and hasnt said a positive word about Putin or word against Ukraine since.
Almost all Russian players have kept their mouth shut and focused on hockey. Theyre losing sponsorships, commercials and other promotional deals just for being Russian, and not saying a word. I think we can assume its not because none of them (including Ovechkin) have an opinion. So maybe we can just accept its probably more complex than we understand and people could stop asking for or demanding the absurd, from the pointless (profile photos) to the extreme (banning Ovechkin and only Ovechkin from Canada).
There just doesnt seem to be a reason to rehash how terrible Ovechkin is when nothing has changed in nearing a year.
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I'd bet Montreal is lodging a protest with the League indicating that he should have been banned from the League at least for their NYE game where he absolutely Wood-shedded the Habs and then took photos with their moms....
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I keep trying to decide what I think about ovechkin as a person.
A friend of mine was saying before Christmas that the only time a russian players name should be mentioned on a broadcast is when he has the puck, otherwise, they should not be menti9ned at all. Which I thought was a ridiculous take
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I keep trying to decide what I think about ovechkin as a person.
A friend of mine was saying before Christmas that the only time a russian players name should be mentioned on a broadcast is when he has the puck, otherwise, they should not be menti9ned at all. Which I thought was a ridiculous take
Such is society these days. Hate to use the slippery slope argument but sometimes with the loudest in the room yelling and being heard, and things going downhill in simple logic and having a thicker skin, it would not surprise me in a few years if such a thing would be done. Taking a moral stand without knowing intent is so dumb these days.
Wow, watching that really puts it into perspective, it's like he's playing NHL '22 on rookie with all the CPU sliders set to minimum.
To be dominant in today's NHL is very different from being dominant in the era of Gretzky.
When I was watching that I was thinking to myself, if any one of those goaltenders are in the HHOF they should be pulled. How did goaltenders not evolve until Roy or Brodeur? Gretzky's accomplishments should be diminished because of the terrible era he was in.
This entire part of the conversation and Groot’s main point was directed towards people who wanted him to change his profile photo. So the most logical retort would not have been to go on and defend why his profile photo is important.
The thing is, I'm one of the people who think his profile photo should be changed and see it as important. Does that mean I have the "incorrect" opinion and you the "correct" one?
(next part spoilered for thread derail; don't read if not interested in political discussion)
Spoiler!
Quote:
None that you’ve spent any time naming. There are countless differences between the two,
Tried to avoid derailing this into a political thread but here goes...
- Putin trying to annex Ukraine. USA never trying to annex any Iraqi territory.
- Putin blatantly lying about Ukraine being run by Nazis.
- Iraq under Saddam was a brutal dictatorship. Ukraine is not and has not been.
- USA had recently been hit by a major terrorist attack that killed over 3000 innocent people and destroyed or damaged some of its largest buildings. As a result, the American public was less adverse to using direct force as a response to foreign policy situations, than they otherwise would be. In other words, their emotions were still raw, and it was much more difficult for them to resist being swayed by propaganda than it otherwise would have been. No such 9/11 event in Russia two years prior to the Ukraine invasion.
- Russia a quasi-dictatorship where Putin orders secret assassinations or sham trials against those who treaten his power or antagonize his regime. USA is not that kind of country. If an American pro athlete or celebrity speaks out against the current or a former president, that person's family won't be harmed by the US government in retaliation.
- USA has a legitimate (albeit very flawed) election system. Russia has no legitimate elections by any reasonable standard.
Quote:
but when you boil it down to a moral objection? No, the differences aren’t really that important. Unless it’s better to kill innocent Iraqis than innocent Ukrainians or better to believe Americans when they’re lying about why they’re undertaking an illegal invasion than it is to believe Russians. You really don’t think an American who supports his President believing in lies is similar to a Russian who supports his President believing in lies? I think they’re very similar.
I think a very important point missed in all this is the difference between supporting the military action of a leader, and supporting the leader himself. The controversy here is Ovi's cozy relationship with Putin throught his life prior to the war, not the war itself. No one is sitting here accusing Ovi of supporting the war (at least, none that I've seen).
So when you make the comparable of Gretzky supporting the Iraq war, the question becomes did he know at the time what the fallout of the war would be? Did he know that Iraq wasn't on track to build WMDs in the near future? We will probably never know. But did he support Bush's 2000 election campaign, or his 2004 re-election campaign? If so, I think that's better grounds for comparing him to Ovi.
Quote:
Correct, but focusing on the wording of his definition was being pedantic. I think you well knew he meant the same thing you defined. You spent more time arguing why his definition of virtue signalling was wrong because he missed a word than actually identifying why the label itself was wrong. That’s being pedantic.
Yeah no, I wasn't. The word he missed was the most important part of the entire thing. It's like if I asked you for a "chip cookie", you hand me a cookie filled with computer chips, and I say whoopsie, I missed a word, I meant a chocolate chip cookie.
Virtue signalling only happens if the person making the comments has a motive beyond just sharing their genuine point of view on something. I didn't.
Quote:
Fair enough, but you can at least see the reason for the reaction, I hope. Nobody needs to like or dislike Ovechkin. Nobody needs to cheer for him to break the record or condemn him. People are free to do whichever, but I think there’s just some people growing tired of people coming into a thread where the entire purpose is following him on his way to the record just to virtue signal about his profile photo or how awful he is for previously supporting Putin. Meanwhile the last thing Ovechkin said was that he doesn’t want war and hasn’t said a positive word about Putin or word against Ukraine since.
Almost all Russian players have kept their mouth shut and focused on hockey. They’re losing sponsorships, commercials and other promotional deals just for being Russian, and not saying a word. I think we can assume it’s not because none of them (including Ovechkin) have an opinion. So maybe we can just accept it’s probably more complex than we understand and people could stop asking for or demanding the absurd, from the pointless (profile photos) to the extreme (banning Ovechkin and only Ovechkin from Canada).
There just doesn’t seem to be a reason to rehash how terrible Ovechkin is when nothing has changed in nearing a year.
Agreed for the most part. But I still view the instagram pic as problematic.
Yeah no, I wasn't. The word he missed was the most important part of the entire thing. It's like if I asked you for a "chip cookie", you hand me a cookie filled with computer chips, and I say whoopsie, I missed a word, I meant a chocolate chip cookie.
Virtue signalling only happens if the person making the comments has a motive beyond just sharing their genuine point of view on something. I didn't.
Yes, you absolutely are being pedantic and that is such an absurd analogy. Since you're so hung up on specific words, the definition I posted said statements "...that demonstrates ones good character or social conscience" and demonstrates would indicate intent. And you'll never convince me that trying to tell people that Ovy's records are tarnished because of an entirely unrelated topic about a horrific and unusual war he has nothing to do with is not virtue signalling. And remember I never even mentioned you ever but you took it as a personal slight anyway. Again, speaks volumes.
I think a very important point missed in all this is the difference between supporting the military action of a leader, and supporting the leader himself. The controversy here is Ovi's cozy relationship with Putin throught his life prior to the war, not the war itself. No one is sitting here accusing Ovi of supporting the war (at least, none that I've seen).
So when you make the comparable of Gretzky supporting the Iraq war, the question becomes did he know at the time what the fallout of the war would be? Did he know that Iraq wasn't on track to build WMDs in the near future? We will probably never know. But did he support Bush's 2000 election campaign, or his 2004 re-election campaign? If so, I think that's better grounds for comparing him to Ovi.
Yet Ovi's friendship with Putin only became a vocal problem for people once the war happened.
This thread has existed for about 34 months. "Putin" was mentioned zero times until 9 months ago, and he's been mentioned in 58 posts since (based on a simple search). And certainly many people had quieter misgivings about it before that, but apparently it just wasn't rant worthy for them at that point?
So it's weird to say that Gretzky has a valid excuse for being fed lies by his media/gov't and being ignorant of the eventualities, while not extending those same considerations to Ovechkin.
Ovechkin is somewhat of an anomoly. Late 30s and production not tailing off. I hope he doesn’t run into injury trouble. It would be cool to have him catch Wayne for the scoring title.
As others have said. It amazing that he could accomplish it in this era where teams play such tight defensive systems.
