[Trade] Hall (50% ret), Speers to ARI for 1st, cond 3rd, Merkley, Schnarr, Bahl

[BrennyBaller]

Why does signing Hall mean trading Gaudreau? Why not sign Hall and load up the roster for a year to go for it? If the season goes off the rails, trade Johnny at the deadline. Or after the season when he still has a year left on his deal.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If Treliving's tenure ended today, is anyone realistically arguing that his record as GM is anything other than average?

I would argue that it's better than average.

During his tenure here, the organization has improved, and moved up the ranks, on many fronts: they are more talented, they have a deep roster, their drafting has improved, they (the front office) are more respected around the league.

The next step is to be able to take the roster to the next level - and we'll see if he can do that - but I don't think there is any question that he has raised the organization to a higher level than where he inherited it, or where it has been in a very long time. So in that sense, I don't think the word average applies at all.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Agreed. I think the current roster is the most talented in more than a decade, and most of it is on the right side of 27. But the core needs a remodelling, and there's not much help coming in the system. This will be a huge off-season for Treliving.

I don't have a problem with a sign Hall and trade Gaudreau scenario. Both players have holes in their game and elite skill, but moving Gaudreau would net an influx of presumably young talent (which they'd need with the higher cap hit of a signed Hall).

Yeah i'm not a huge Hall fan but I think that type of scenario would be good for the franchise.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The thing that has me intrigued was Friedman saying he thinks the Flames will be in on Hall if he makes it to July 1 and he thinks Hall would have interest playing here.

Flames are rarely a player in on big name free agents (Bouwmeester is the only one I can think of). That is not because they don’t have interest but usually players don’t have interest. If Hall wants to come here that would be huge for the team to add a player like that for cap space. Being able to flip Gaudreau for high end futures would help keep the window from closing sooner than later

I only want Hall if he's here to augment the current core of forwards (gaudreau, monahan, Lindholm tkatchuk).

Replacing gaudreau with Hall (and futures as you suggested) would be a poor, middling decision in my opinion. Leaving the team not really improved in the short term, and having an expensive older Ufa signing as the core player on a rebuilding team for the middle/long term.

I would definitely look to trying to move backlunds cap hit, bringing in Hall as a means to improve the forwards (going younger and cheaper on d perhaps).

[Robo]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I only want Hall if he's here to augment the current core of forwards (gaudreau, monahan, Lindholm tkatchuk).

Replacing gaudreau with Hall (and futures as you suggested) would be a poor, middling decision in my opinion. Leaving the team not really improved in the short term, and having an expensive older Ufa signing as the core player on a rebuilding team for the middle/long term.

I would definitely look to trying to move backlunds cap hit, bringing in Hall as a means to improve the forwards (going younger and cheaper on d perhaps).

I have a feeling this off season or sooner if we are out of the playoff race gaudreau will be traded for a significant package and we will sign hall to replace him in the off season

[sa226]

Not to change the direction of the thread, but it seems that there is a trend away from aquiring a massive haul of talent, if you decide to move on from a top end player, ie Gaudreau. My best guess is that the cap has changed things considerably.

Look at Mark Stone. A fantastic hockey player. Basically all Ottawa got for him was Brannstrom and a 2nd. Not terrible, but I hesitate to say franchise changing. With Stone's contract demands, it severely limits the teams ale to bid on him. Calgary bowed out, likely for that reason.

What I'm saying, is that franchises now have to make the decision of whether to move on from a player before they hit free agency and leave for nothing, or try to extract some value, rather than have a fire sale to change the franchise. That decision becomes quite difficult if they are in the mix for the playoffs. Calgary is facing that this year with Hamonic.

Even if the flames decide to move on from Gaudreau before he hits free agency, the return I doubt would be franchise changing. You for sure will get a nice piece, but if they truly want to retool the franchise, you're talking much more than Gaudreau. Plus, you need to stop trading picks.

To me Colorado is a model for the right moves. Sat on a problem child in Duchesne and extracted maximum value at the right time, while keeping their high picks and drafting well. Oh and Mckinnon. I don't think Calgary is in the right position to do the same.

Its cliche now, but high draft picks must be held to the highest value. Even in the bottom of the first round, that is how you acquire top end talent.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The thing that has me intrigued was Friedman saying he thinks the Flames will be in on Hall if he makes it to July 1 and he thinks Hall would have interest playing here.

Flames are rarely a player in on big name free agents (Bouwmeester is the only one I can think of). That is not because they don’t have interest but usually players don’t have interest. If Hall wants to come here that would be huge for the team to add a player like that for cap space. Being able to flip Gaudreau for high end futures would help keep the window from closing sooner than later

Trading Gaudreau after acquiring Hall would keep us as a bubble team, and by the time those futures became impact players Hall would likely be out of his prime and we would continue on as a bubble team. The window is now and for the next 3 years. Do all you can to win during that time - do not trade your best player away to retool on the fly - if we can't get it done in this window then by all means, blow up the team and try again... but it makes no sense to be trading away our best player for futures right now while at the same time acquiring a high end player.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Trading Gaudreau after acquiring Hall would keep us as a bubble team, and by the time those futures became impact players Hall would likely be out of his prime and we would continue on as a bubble team. The window is now and for the next 3 years. Do all you can to win during that time - do not trade your best player away to retool on the fly - if we can't get it done in this window then by all means, blow up the team and try again... but it makes no sense to be trading away our best player for futures right now while at the same time acquiring a high end player.

Lots of assumption there. I would be trying to trade Johnny to expand the window further.
"Futures" doesn't mean picks or prospects, could mean a young roster player reading to take a step.
Or a combination.
Also young players drafted with high picks are entering the NHL and making an impact faster than ever.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Lots of assumption there. I would be trying to trade Johnny to expand the window further.
"Futures" doesn't mean picks or prospects, could mean a young roster player reading to take a step.
Or a combination.
Also young players drafted with high picks are entering the NHL and making an impact faster than ever.

I don't see a scenario in which we trade Gaudreau and receive a young roster player that would have an equal to greater impact than Gaudreau currently has.

We have our window and it is 3 years with this current group IMO. Trading Gaudreau now, in anything other than a straight up hockey trade will make the team worse in the short term. We need to augment and add key pieces, subtracting key pieces for young players and prospects is not a move you make in your contention window. If you don't believe this is our window, then don't acquire Hall, trade Gaudreau for futures, trade Hamonic and Brodie for picks, trade Backlund for picks... but to trade Gaudreau for anything other than a player of equal impact and acquire Hall is a middling move that only keeps us on the bubble for the next few years, it may extend our window but it extends it with a weaker team.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Lots of assumption there. I would be trying to trade Johnny to expand the window further.
"Futures" doesn't mean picks or prospects, could mean a young roster player reading to take a step.
Or a combination.
Also young players drafted with high picks are entering the NHL and making an impact faster than ever.

What teams are in a win now AND have bluechip prospects (top 5 in their draft)?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

What teams are in a win now AND have bluechip prospects (top 5 in their draft)?

Who knows. That discussion is about next season.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

What teams are in a win now AND have bluechip prospects (top 5 in their draft)?

Colorado, off the top of my head. That team is set up for a long time.

The Islanders and Hurricanes are also sitting quite pretty as it stands.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Colorado, off the top of my head. That team is set up for a long time.

The Islanders and Hurricanes are also sitting quite pretty as it stands.

Yes, but I’d argue those teams are just completing their rebuild. Flames haven’t drafted in the top 10 since 2016. When Duchene was traded the Avs were the worst team in the league.

[bax]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Colorado, off the top of my head. That team is set up for a long time.

The Islanders and Hurricanes are also sitting quite pretty as it stands.

Colorado wouldn’t move any of their top prospects for Hall and they won’t for Gaudreau either. If we sign Hall it’s not to replace Johnny. It’s to go all in

[Vinny01]

I don’t see how the Flames can pay Hall the $8-9M he will want while not subtracting a huge contract. Johnny could go for a massive return that includes a top 10 pick ++ that would hopefully bring in another core piece that will be a major contributor as Tkachuk enters his 25-29 year old seasons.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I don’t see how the Flames can pay Hall the $8-9M he will want while not subtracting a huge contract. Johnny could go for a massive return that includes a top 10 pick ++ that would hopefully bring in another core piece that will be a major contributor as Tkachuk enters his 25-29 year old seasons.

Only rebuilding teams have top 10 picks. I don’t understand why a rebuilding team would trade a pick like that for Gaudreau one year away from free agency.

It would be tight but having Jankowski, Frolik, Brodie, Hamonic, Talbot, Czarnik, Stone, and Rieder coming off the books allows Treliving to get a little creative with the roster. We will have a new look team next year for sure.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by bax

Only rebuilding teams have top 10 picks. I don’t understand why a rebuilding team would trade a pick like that for Gaudreau one year away from free agency.

It would be tight but having Jankowski, Frolik, Brodie, Hamonic, Talbot, Czarnik, Stone, and Rieder coming off the books allows Treliving to get a little creative with the roster. We will have a new look team next year for sure.

He will be 2 years away, and no one knows in the off-season who will be a top 10 pick and who won't.
Though I also think almost every pick will now have some sort of lottery protection.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I don’t see how the Flames can pay Hall the $8-9M he will want while not subtracting a huge contract. Johnny could go for a massive return that includes a top 10 pick ++ that would hopefully bring in another core piece that will be a major contributor as Tkachuk enters his 25-29 year old seasons.

I think pretty easily, but only for one season. Next season (using cap friendly):

Hall ($8.5) - Lindholm - Tkachuk
Gaudreau - Monahan - Mangiapane (?)
Lucic - Backlund - Bennett
? - Ryan - Dube

Gio - Rasmus (?)
Hanifin - Kylington (?)
Yelesin - Valamaki

Rittich


$12mil cap space (on $81.5mil cap) to sign a back up (much cheaper than Talbot), Mangiapane, Rasmus, Kylington, and another bottom forward. Plus depth allowance.

[Rando]

Even putting the perception that Gaudreau will bolt for the east coast when he's UFA aside, the Rangers might be a good landing spot for at trade. After picking 2nd overall last summer they will probably fall outside the top ten this year. Could Gaudreau last their 1st rounder (10-15) Filip Chytil and another piece (Lias Andersson Vitali Kravtsov etc). No idea honestly. This exercises are never fun.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by bax

Only rebuilding teams have top 10 picks. I don’t understand why a rebuilding team would trade a pick like that for Gaudreau one year away from free agency.

It would be tight but having Jankowski, Frolik, Brodie, Hamonic, Talbot, Czarnik, Stone, and Rieder coming off the books allows Treliving to get a little creative with the roster. We will have a new look team next year for sure.

The Coyotes traded a 7th overall pick for Stepan, the Devils traded a 9th overall pick for Schneider. The Jackets traded the 8th pick and Voracek for Carter.

I don’t see a team trading a top 5 pick for Johnny but could see 6-10 especially if they think they are a player away.

Rasmus likely gets $4M if they go long term (perhaps they bridge) and they will still need to keep/replace one of Brodie or Hamonic which will eat into that cap space.