[Rumour] Kadri used his NTC to nix a trade to the Flames involving TJ Brodie

[GranteedEV]

Call me crazy, but on the Flames specifically, Kadri would probably find himself centering Gaudreau and Lindholm at some point and it could be extremely successful. He's a more dynamic player than Monahan.

[Bonded]

Yeah, I think Kadri could have done real well here

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Call me crazy, but on the Flames specifically, Kadri would probably find himself centering Gaudreau and Lindholm at some point and it could be extremely successful. He's a more dynamic player than Monahan.

Okay. I’ll do it.

You are crazy.

All Sean Monahan does is make plays and score. He’s not flashy, but one would be VERY hard pressed to get better—or even comparable—production from that top line by swapping Monahan out of it. He is a significantly better player than Nazeem Kadri.


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[Heavy Jack]

So if Kadri ended up centering a line of Gaudreau and Lindholm and did well it’s because he’s ‘dynamic’ but Monahan only has his numbers because of the benefits of playing with Gaudreau... right...

Man it’s annoying how much disrespect Monahan gets around here; he’s a #1 Center on at least half of the league if not more.

[Roof-Daddy]

Yeah, this is pretty frustrating to say the least. F that little puke.

This team needs another legit top 6 center a lot more than it needs Brodie, because we have a large group of very good D men and our center depth is not very impressive after Monahan and Backlund unless they move Lindholm to C which leaves a different hole in the top 6.

It was frustrating not getting O'Reilly last summer.
And this is just as frustrating this summer.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

So if Kadri ended up centering a line of Gaudreau and Lindholm and did well it’s because he’s ‘dynamic’ but Monahan only has his numbers because of the benefits of playing with Gaudreau... right...

Man it’s annoying how much disrespect Monahan gets around here; he’s a #1 Center on at least half of the league if not more.

Remember how for the longest time during Iggy's days we'd lament on the Flames not having a legit top line centre? We finally draft one in Monahan, and some now think Nazem fricking Kadri is a better fit?

I get that Mony still has room for improvement, but how can you argue against his production?

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Remember how for the longest time during Iggy's days we'd lament on the Flames not having a legit top line centre? We finally draft one in Monahan, and some now think Nazem fricking Kadri is a better fit?

I get that Mony still has room for improvement, but how can you argue against his production?

Daymond Langkow had 77 points with Iggy one year, would you consider him a top line centre?

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Daymond Langkow had 77 points with Iggy one year, would you consider him a top line centre?

It took Langkow 5 seasons to hit 50 points in a season and nearly a decade to hit 30 goals ... that’s not even as good as Monahan’s 31/31 62 point sophomore year... please tell me your not comparing Monahan’s success from playing with Gaudreau to Langkow’s success from playing with Iggy are you?? Brutal comparable if I’m reading that correctly...

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Daymond Langkow had 77 points with Iggy one year, would you consider him a top line centre?

For that season, absolutely. How can you say he wasn't?

Eleven centers had more points then Monahan last year, in what world isn't he a top line player?

The debate isn't is Monahan a top line center, it's does he have that extra gear, that two-way game that's needed for success in the playoffs. He isn't a superstar like MacKinnon, Barkov etc but he's a top line guy. Full stop.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Rando

For that season, absolutely. How can you say he wasn't?



Eleven centers had more points then Monahan last year, in what world isn't he a top line player?



The debate isn't is Monahan a top line center, it's does he have that extra gear, that two-way game that's needed for success in the playoffs. He isn't a superstar like MacKinnon, Barkov etc but he's a top line guy. Full stop.

He’s a top line guy for a team looking to just make the playoffs, sure. But he’s decidedly middle of the pack across the league. Is the goal to be a middle of the pack team?

To win it all in this league you absolutely need to have at least one centre capable of taking over a game when it matters. Monahan is not that player, and the Flames have not had that kind of center since Nieuwendyk.

The Langkow comparison is probably closer than many are willing to admit. He’ll put up points when paired with a real difference maker, but for the most part he’s a complementary player who’s just along for the ride.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

He’s a top line guy for a team looking to just make the playoffs, sure. But he’s decidedly middle of the pack across the league. Is the goal to be a middle of the pack team?

To win it all in this league you absolutely need to have at least one centre capable of taking over a game when it matters. Monahan is not that player, and the Flames have not had that kind of center since Nieuwendyk.

The Langkow comparison is probably closer than many are willing to admit. He’ll put up points when paired with a real difference maker, but for the most part he’s a complementary player who’s just along for the ride.

Let’s say this is true. What’s the solution? If you need that kind of centre and Monahan being as good as he is, isn’t at that level, what’s the solution?

Outside of drafting, there aren’t many solutions available. Maybe you sign or trade for a guy, but how many are available and which of them want to come to Calgary? How many teams actually have a guy like that and how many of them would be willing to part with him?

Personally, you don’t really know you have a player like that until they prove it. For some guys that’s really early, for others it’s a little later in their career. Because of that, I think it’s too early to say a guy like Monahan isn’t that. Plenty of top guys find a new gear later in their 20s when they realise offence alone isn’t enough. Monahan is 24.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Call me crazy, but on the Flames specifically, Kadri would probably find himself centering Gaudreau and Lindholm at some point and it could be extremely successful. He's a more dynamic player than Monahan.

Rookie year aside, Monahan's worst year in terms of production is pretty well on par with Kadris best year (in terms of production) ever. The two players aren't even comparable.

In the past 6 season Monahan is 16th in the NHL in goals. Kadri was only 49th. What about points, Fair enough Monahan was only 31th in those 6 years. That said, Kadri was 72nd.

But why look back so far, lets look at a more recent sample. IN the last 2 year Monahan was 20th in the league for goals. The more dynamic kadri was only 77th. Points again, Monahan was only 31th. Kadri was 110th.

#### it lets just compare career totals across the board, in 100 fewer games Monahan still has more points and more goals.

Face the facts. Monahan is one of the top goal scoring centres in the league, and believe it or not, at 24 he is entering his prime, and if you were going to say that Kadri is a better shut down player I would say two things, first, top line centres should not be pulling defensive duty, their job is to score. Second is that although a flawed stat, Monahan in 6 years in -9 while kadri is -40. In the last two year Monahan +10 and Kadri 0.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

He’s a top line guy for a team looking to just make the playoffs, sure. But he’s decidedly middle of the pack across the league. Is the goal to be a middle of the pack team?

To win it all in this league you absolutely need to have at least one centre capable of taking over a game when it matters. Monahan is not that player, and the Flames have not had that kind of center since Nieuwendyk.

Sean Monahan has played a lot of NHL hockey, but he is still young enough that I don't think we entirely know what kind of a player he is. Sometimes players take years to figure out how to play and succeed in the playoffs, and if all that Monahan is missing is the requisite intensity and tenacity to get to the open ice a little quicker, or to hold off a forecheck then I feel pretty good about his ability to get there, and it is way too early to be making these sorts of blanket dismissals.

The Langkow comparison is probably closer than many are willing to admit. He’ll put up points when paired with a real difference maker, but for the most part he’s a complementary player who’s just along for the ride.

Oh, god. Sean Monahan is not a complimentary player. We don't get to see everything he is capable of doing because he has played so much with Johnny Gaudreau, who is the primary puck carrier and distributor on that line. It's not because Sean Monahan is incapable of doing it, it is because they are so comfortable with one another in these respective roles, and because it tends to work.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Let’s say this is true. What’s the solution?

It won’t be a popular opinion but I think the answer is to completely rebuild if this team suffers another early summer. Like you said the only way you get that kind of player in a market like Calgary is to draft them.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

It won’t be a popular opinion but I think the answer is to completely rebuild if this team suffers another early summer. Like you said the only way you get that kind of player in a market like Calgary is to draft them.

I recall a similar ongoing discussion taking place in 2006 surrounding a 27-year-old Pavel Datsyuk whose Detroit Red Wings were bounced from the playoffs in six games.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Sean Monahan has played a lot of NHL hockey, but he is still young enough that I don't think we entirely know what kind of a player he is. Sometimes players take years to figure out how to play and succeed in the playoffs, and if all that Monahan is missing is the requisite intensity and tenacity to get to the open ice a little quicker, or to hold off a forecheck then I feel pretty good about his ability to get there, and it is way too early to be making these sorts of blanket dismissals.


Oh, god. Sean Monahan is not a complimentary player. We don't get to see everything he is capable of doing because he has played so much with Johnny Gaudreau, who is the primary puck carrier and distributor on that line. It's not because Sean Monahan is incapable of doing it, it is because they are so comfortable with one another in these respective roles, and because it tends to work.

You sure do get upset about people having different opinions than you do. Based on what I’ve seen, and from the team’s performance in the playoffs to date, and in my experience watching the Flames for a long time, that’s my opinion. Monahan has never in my years of watching him taken over a game without the help of Gaudreau, and he certainly hasn’t carried a team on his back the way players like Mackinnon, Crosby, O’Reilly, Iginla, etc have shown the ability to do.

And again, in my opinion, that’s one of the reasons why this team may not be built to go far in the playoffs. Feel free to disagree but my mind isn’t going to be swayed by getting dragged into an argument about it on the internet. It’s going to be swayed by seeing it happen.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Oh, god. Sean Monahan is not a complimentary player. We don't get to see everything he is capable of doing because he has played so much with Johnny Gaudreau, who is the primary puck carrier and distributor on that line. It's not because Sean Monahan is incapable of doing it, it is because they are so comfortable with one another in these respective roles, and because it tends to work.

I think that the bolded point is best emphasized by Monahans propensity to score game winning goals. The man is one of the clutchest game closers in the league. If we use the last 6 years all the years he was in the league he has had 35 GWG, which is 9th best in the league for that time frame. Clearly that is cherry picking stats, so lets go two years before he even entered the league and see how he stacks up in that last 8 years. In that time farme he is still 22nd in the entire NHL.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Rando

For that season, absolutely. How can you say he wasn't?

Eleven centers had more points then Monahan last year, in what world isn't he a top line player?

The debate isn't is Monahan a top line center, it's does he have that extra gear, that two-way game that's needed for success in the playoffs. He isn't a superstar like MacKinnon, Barkov etc but he's a top line guy. Full stop.

Point totals only mean so much. Dany Heatley used to be a "top line guy", but how much of that was being a perfect fit on a line with Spezza and Alfredsson? Even at center, you have Steven Stamkos, who benefitted greatly from playing with Martin St. Louis, and put up an absolutely legendary 60 goal season - but since MSL's departure he's become more of a secondary guy, in the Lightning's most successful seasons seeing the best wingers on his team playing with Johnson (2015 playoffs) or with Point ( 2019 season) who are more dynamic centers.

Monahan isn't a two way beast like Toews, Kopitar, ROR, Bergeron, etc so adhering to him as a defacto 1C "just because he produces" doesn't do it for me. If a guy like Kadri could have similar levels of success on that same line, then Monahan should be able to suck it up and succeed on his own line, even if it's less prolific on the statsheets for him. I'm interested in the team's success. And comparing the two players' past production makes no sense, one guy was playing top line with Gaudreau and the other has been buried behind Matthews, or if we go back further played on the least talented team in the NHL in 2016. I've always seen Monahan as being more of a Jeff Carter / Steven Stamkos type - these guys are valuable pieces but they're also highly flawed. You can win with them if you are able to have perspective on what they are and what they are not, but you can't keep plugging them into a round hole ad infinitum and expecting different results.

[Rando]

Yeah, we're actually on the same page when it comes to center depth, what's needed from the top position and how to improve the team. Suppose I just don't adhere to the labels. You can be a top line player without being a star, you can be a number one goalie without being Patrik Roy. (did that rhythm?)

If you've seen my posts I've been a huge proponent of bringing in Kadri, even for shaking up the lines if it happened, not against that. The possibility of a poop-disturber on either top line (Tkachuk with Monahan, Gaudreau with Kadri) was interesting to me.

And is there anything suggest that Monahan wouldn't "suck it up" if his linemates are changed? Weird comment. Don't get where you were coming from with that.

I'm interested in the team's success

Me too!

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Rando

And is there anything suggest that Monahan wouldn't "suck it up" if his linemates are changed? Weird comment. Don't get where you were coming from with that.

Not at all. I should rephrase that as "Monahan's staunch defenders should get thicker skin than to refuse to acknowledge the idea that he could be separated from Gaudreau"