Flames - how to cure the rot for 2019/20

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Lol, no. This team can easily replace Frolik, Jankowski, Brodie, Czarnik and Neal and not skip a beat.

It would be prudent trading Giordano this summer. Good teams make tough decisions and his value is at its peak. We need to not hold on too long like we did with Iginla. Maybe we can squeeze one more elite season out of him.

There’s a Gaudreau trade to be made that can bring immense value back including at least one top 6 player that would contribute more come playoff time, plus other assets. Move Tkachuk to top line LW.

Monahan provides nothing more than 30-35 regular season garbage goals. He’s beat up by the end of the regular season. We need a bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, angrier, more competitive #1 center if we ever want to go deep.

Take Gaudreau, Monahan and Giordano off the team and we still finish 20 pts above the Oilers, not drafting 1st overall.

Literally taking 3 of our top 5 players away? Deals where likely the Flames are moving the best player in the trade? Fantasy land zero chance it happens and big chance it blows up in the Flames face.

I realistically see less change coming this summer than last with more tweaks to add some size and grit. Guys like Brodie, Frolik won’t be back but it would be shocking to see one of the fab 5 this year moved let alone 3.

[Azure]

Lots of garbage being thrown around.

I think it was obvious Johnny needed someone who can drive the play on his line. A true #1 center is a tough ask, but if we could move Monahan down to the #2 spot the team would be a lot deeper.

The Capitals are a great example of why you don't blow everything up just because of 1 or 2 early exits. Lots of people questioned their core, and yet they still went on to win the cup.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Is there a link to this?

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...-playoff-exit/

Look under Tkachuk.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

There is no indication Peters will ever be on this 'split up Johnny and Monahan' page. If they are on the same team, they are together.

Maybe Peters isn't as good as we thought then. Sometimes you need to get creative. The rules of the game were different in the playoffs. I still think we could have played the trap or moved Bennet to first line center or something to make this series more interesting. He could have done more. They dont have the skill set to make space when the whistles go away when they are together.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Azure

Lots of garbage being thrown around.

I think it was obvious Johnny needed someone who can drive the play on his line. A true #1 center is a tough ask, but if we could move Monahan down to the #2 spot the team would be a lot deeper.

The Capitals are a great example of why you don't blow everything up just because of 1 or 2 early exits. Lots of people questioned their core, and yet they still went on to win the cup.

People keep bringing up the Capitals.

I am sorry but Backstrom and Ovechkin are not Gaudreau and Monahan. You are comparing this core to a team with arguably the greatest goal scorer of all time. Backstrom and Ovechkin have always scored relatively well in the playoffs. Not to mention they have another gamebreaker in Kuznetsov


How about the Flames after the lockout as an example instead? Iginla, Regehr, Langkow, Kiprusoff... keeping the core together did nothing for the Flames. Or the Sedins in Vancouver.

Sometimes you need to realize who is a clutch player and make appropriate changes.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by keenan87

People keep bringing up the Capitals.

I am sorry but Backstrom and Ovechkin are not Gaudreau and Monahan. Not to mention another superstar in Kuznetsov.

You are comparing this core to a team with arguably the greatest goal scorer of all time.

How about the Flames after the lockout as an example instead? Iginla, Regehr, Langkow, Kiprusoff... keeping the core together did nothing for the Flames.

Agreed. The Caps were also consistently at least passing a round before being ousted by a powerhouse team in the Penguins. The Flames last three series have seen them ousted in 4 or 5 games, and this year looking horrendous doing it against the 8th seed. People need to read the tea leaves here. I think there is just as much danger that the window gets wasted if the Flames don't risk trying to strengthen where they need to. The Flames have a lot of good players but it doesn't mean its the right combination to get them deep in the playoffs.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by keenan87

People keep bringing up the Capitals.

I am sorry but Backstrom and Ovechkin are not Gaudreau and Monahan. Not to mention another superstar in Kuznetsov. You are comparing this core to a team with arguably the greatest goal scorer of all time.

How about the Flames after the lockout as an example instead? Iginla, Regehr, Langkow, Kiprusoff... keeping the core together did nothing for the Flames. Or the Sedins in Vancouver.

Sometimes you need to realize who is a clutch player and make appropriate changes.

The thing is Gaudreau and Monahan have both had several clutch moments in the past. Remember Johnny was right there with Mackinnon and McDavid in the World Cup. Johnny won’t the Beanpot and Frozen Four MVP as a rookie. He scored a clutch goal to help the Flames get a win against the Ducks in 2015. Monahan is among the franchise leaders in game winning goals.

Both guys have shown to be clutch in the past. They were key in carrying this team to a regular season that hasn’t happened in 30 years. They had a bad series so now let’s cut bait? For what might I ask. How are we trading either guy for an upgrade?

Writing off a 24 and 25 year old is risky and silly. Luckily Treliving is neither

[Psytic]

At the beginning of the season we would have been happy to make the playoffs. Now after our best season in 20 years we should blow it up immediately. You guys are hilarious. There is a good base to build on here already. We need some players that give time and space for our top players. Lets try to get some first before we jump off the ledge.

[2macinnis2]

My brother who is not a Flames fan shared his fair outsider’s perspective on this when I discussed it with him today. Said he thought Monahan and Gaudreau were obviously awesome talented offensive players but he didn’t understand how I expected the Flames to be better at playoff hockey when the team overall lacks toughness to such an extreme.

This has been tossed around ad nauseum but there probably is truth. And, if you think about it, the Flames actual biggest weakness may be that their 3M line and Janko are so buttery soft. I saw another poster mention this and of the major changes that could be suggested, it’s probably the least crazy: trade Backlund. He’s still a very good player but his style isn’t what this team needs in the lineup after Monahan. I still like the idea of going hard after Hayes, but he would need top 2 line ice time. I’d imagine between Backlund, Frolik, and Brodie, we MAY actually be able to net an additional 2 first rounders and add a lot of young depth into the prospect pool.

I also hope, hope, hope this season appeals to the pride of James Neal in his offseason training. If he can be the player he was in Vegas, the lineup looks very different.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Psytic

We need some players that give time and space for our top players. Lets try to get some

How exactly do we do that?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Agreed. The Caps were also consistently at least passing a round before being ousted by a powerhouse team in the Penguins. The Flames last three series have seen them ousted in 4 or 5 games, and this year looking horrendous doing it against the 8th seed. People need to read the tea leaves here. I think there is just as much danger that the window gets wasted if the Flames don't risk trying to strengthen where they need to. The Flames have a lot of good players but it doesn't mean its the right combination to get them deep in the playoffs.

Agree the Caps are not the best example but let’s temember that Ovie won the cup at 32 and Backstrom was 30. Those guys are significantly older than the Flames current core. Calgary could be at just as much risk moving core pieces in a deal and making the team worse for perceived “better playoff guys” that is basically what the Oilers did with Taylor Hall and moved him for a player they needed but also a significant downgrade on the player they sent out.

I think the big risk here is deciding our players are not cut out for the playoffs and moving them in trades that closes the window quickly. 9 playoff games in Tkachuk might be the worst out of our young core. Completely invisible maybe he will never get it done in the postseason? The same guy that scored a Memorial Cup OT winner battling an injury.

I am very interested to find out more from the players tomorrow when they clean out their lockers.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by 2macinnis2

My brother who is not a Flames fan shared his fair outsider’s perspective on this when I discussed it with him today. Said he thought Monahan and Gaudreau were obviously awesome talented offensive players but he didn’t understand how I expected the Flames to be better at playoff hockey when the team overall lacks toughness to such an extreme.

This has been tossed around ad nauseum but there probably is truth. And, if you think about it, the Flames actual biggest weakness may be that their 3M line and Janko are so buttery soft. I saw another poster mention this and of the major changes that could be suggested, it’s probably the least crazy: trade Backlund. He’s still a very good player but his style isn’t what this team needs in the lineup after Monahan. I still like the idea of going hard after Hayes, but he would need top 2 line ice time. I’d imagine between Backlund, Frolik, and Brodie, we MAY actually be able to net an additional 2 first rounders and add a lot of young depth into the prospect pool.

I also hope, hope, hope this season appeals to the pride of James Neal in his offseason training. If he can be the player he was in Vegas, the lineup looks very different.

Yes the team is soft and Tre knows it. He has tried with Brouwer, Neal and even Jagr to an extent to get bigger but its blown up in his face every time. The man knows exactly what we all know. Eventually one of these signings for size has to work out for us.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

How exactly do we do that?

Posted before you can peruse my post history in this thread.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by 2macinnis2

My brother who is not a Flames fan shared his fair outsider’s perspective on this when I discussed it with him today. Said he thought Monahan and Gaudreau were obviously awesome talented offensive players but he didn’t understand how I expected the Flames to be better at playoff hockey when the team overall lacks toughness to such an extreme.

This has been tossed around ad nauseum but there probably is truth. And, if you think about it, the Flames actual biggest weakness may be that their 3M line and Janko are so buttery soft. I saw another poster mention this and of the major changes that could be suggested, it’s probably the least crazy: trade Backlund. He’s still a very good player but his style isn’t what this team needs in the lineup after Monahan. I still like the idea of going hard after Hayes, but he would need top 2 line ice time. I’d imagine between Backlund, Frolik, and Brodie, we MAY actually be able to net an additional 2 first rounders and add a lot of young depth into the prospect pool.

I also hope, hope, hope this season appeals to the pride of James Neal in his offseason training. If he can be the player he was in Vegas, the lineup looks very different.

The problem with the Backlund trade is not having a center that can take the heavy lifting defensive matchups. Hayes is not that guy and we have to pay him a lot of money to come here and would likely be another Treliving UFA dud.


I can see why the Flames went so hard after Reaves last summer his swagger come playoff time would have been ideal. Also heard the Flames almost signed Calvert so Treliving was after grit last summer. Let’s see who he chases this off-season.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Psytic

Posted before you can peruse my post history in this thread.

Decent ideas; wouldn't be opposed to doing it as long as it doesn't involve signing any FA to a contract longer than 3 years.

[PeteMoss]

Anyone saying trade Gaudreau on his contract is losing it.

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

It would be prudent trading Giordano this summer. Good teams make tough decisions and his value is at its peak. We need to not hold on too long like we did with Iginla. Maybe we can squeeze one more elite season out of him.

I think on a pure business decision you may be onto something. A GM needs to be divorced from the emotion of the player. But if BT gets the trade wrong and ships out one the most admired Flames in recent memory for what turns out to be an underperforming player(s) then he can expect the fan base to turn and to subsequently be fired.

It’s probably the right move (and your analogue to Iggy is valid) but it’ll take a braver man than me.

What’s his NMC/NTC status?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Agree the Caps are not the best example but let’s temember that Ovie won the cup at 32 and Backstrom was 30. Those guys are significantly older than the Flames current core. Calgary could be at just as much risk moving core pieces in a deal and making the team worse for perceived “better playoff guys” that is basically what the Oilers did with Taylor Hall and moved him for a player they needed but also a significant downgrade on the player they sent out.

I think the big risk here is deciding our players are not cut out for the playoffs and moving them in trades that closes the window quickly. 9 playoff games in Tkachuk might be the worst out of our young core. Completely invisible maybe he will never get it done in the postseason? The same guy that scored a Memorial Cup OT winner battling an injury.

I am very interested to find out more from the players tomorrow when they clean out their lockers.

I don't totally disagree with you, but I'm not advocating for a scorched earth approach. To me Tkachuk isn't even on the list of people I'm questioning yet. But some of the other guys I was expecting to really embrace the leadership role in the playoffs this year didn't do it.

I tend to look for indications that there is reason for more patience but this years performance was so shockingly bad that I don't even know how to wrap my head around it. Its terrible that for our best players, the guys who all had great seasons, we can't look at a single one of them and say "at least he really stepped it up for the playoffs".

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by keenan87

People keep bringing up the Capitals.

I am sorry but Backstrom and Ovechkin are not Gaudreau and Monahan. You are comparing this core to a team with arguably the greatest goal scorer of all time. Backstrom and Ovechkin have always scored relatively well in the playoffs. Not to mention they have another gamebreaker in Kuznetsov

Good news is that Kuznetsov was drafted 26th overall. E have a chance to find one with this pick.

[CGY12]

The Capitals comparison is hilarious, it does the opposite for me, really emphasizing what the Flames are missing, to be a cup contender.

They have a 1 2 punch of Backstrom and Kuznetsov down the middle, both can drive the play, both can dictate pace, both can create space for line mates, both are good skaters, both are great passers, both can finish, both have some sand paper to their game that playoff hockey doesn't make them go into hiding.

Counter that with Monahan and Backlund. Monahan excellent in front of the net and in the face-off circle, but is lacking in virtually every other aspect of the game (speed, raw skill, grit, intensity, vision). Then you have Backlund, serviceable centre playing in 2c role where he is a better fit for 3c.

The Caps literally could beat anybody but the Pens for the longest stretch.. If it weren't for the Pens, OV and crew have more than 1 cup during his time in DC.

Do the Flames need to gut what they have completely? No, the Flames have some building blocks. Its unfortunate the centres they've drafted high haven't been these game changing, control play type players (Bennett/Monahan). It just reinforces how important it is to build from the middle out, the centre ice position dictates so much of what goes on out there.

The Flames need to re-evaluate that position this summer and see if anything can be done, whether thats moving Monahan or exploring all options to see if they can bring in somebody who can manage the game more effectively in crunch time, while dropping Monahan to 2c.