R2 - Series Thread - Golden Knights (P1) vs Sharks (P3)

[jammies]

Vegas winning the Cup might finally break down the old boys' network that has dominated the NHL since, so far I know, inception. Who cares about "paying your dues" or "intangibles" or "veteran presence", I want to see hockey played at high speed by guys who are smart and hungry, not a game run at a comfortable pace by entitled retreads.

Teams building like Vegas did, with the emphasis on guys who play at pace at all times, can only be good for the entertainment value. I say let them go all the way and shake the league up, it's needed shaking for a long, long, long time.

[EldrickOnIce]

Except aren't they are winning, at least in large part, because of intangibles? Everybody buying in? So because of the things the 'veteran presence' is supposed to help provide/instill?

[calgarywinning]

I think it would be good if the Vegas example started to permeate to other teams on team play. They really came together and as was said they have earned respect. It's a storybook real life example of great hockey, no quit, gumption and buying in. Everyone on that team has really contributed to create a sum greater then the parts. This is a team that deserves to be where they are at.

I don't think we will see them fall apart in the next round and they will bring it. Whether they play Nashville or Winnipeg (please), you will see two elite fast teams going at it which is great hockey. Winnipeg is another team who has the favourite on the ropes and they are playing well as a team. We can say statistically Winnipeg should have been thrashed by Nashville, but instead they flipped the script.

I think these stories are what make all sports highly entertaining with a dash of heartbreak for the losers and the teams who just didn't have it to take it to the threshold of success. While I feel bad for San Jose again they've been a highly successful franchise over the last 27 or so years punching their ticket to the playoffs.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

So maybe the Flames should trade Gaudreau for 3 third liners? For improved depth. Because high end talent isn't necessary. Meshing together is more important than talent.

Maybe they should? What we have been doing isn’t working.

But the trick would be finding 3-third liners who all turn into 30 goal scorers.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I might have less sour grapes if they weren't in division, but they are so it's all sour grapes for me.

Screw that team, and screw the NHL for stacking the deck in their favor.

It's absolutely ridiculous that an expansion team is going to the conference finals. What a joke.

EDIT: I'm also admittedly bitter because the team I cheer for has been a pathetically ran joke for 30 years and because of that I haven't had barely a sniff of a team that good to cheer for since I was a goddamn little kid.

Flames fan for all 24 years of my life, couldn't agree more. Vegas being good is horse

Sour grapes for sure, but I don't care. Vegas and all their annoying "fans" can take a hike already.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

So maybe the Flames should trade Gaudreau for 3 third liners? For improved depth. Because high end talent isn't necessary. Meshing together is more important than talent.

I wasn't being snarky about this.

My objection to the post I quoted was the implicit *assumption* that they knew how hockey worked, that somehow Vegas has broken the immutable laws of hockey, and that we should all pack our bags now and be done with it.

If we're confused / curious about the success of Vegas (which I think we ought to be), then the solution is to think harder and be humble about our assumptions and understanding rather than throw all the papers up in the air, break our pencils and say the system is now broken.

[EldrickOnIce]

Wasn't implying nor being snarky either.
It just does really leave us with no idea, I think.
Flames were supposed to need 1 more top 6 forward. 1 right wing who can score.
Now who knows.
What I find interesting is Treliving has sways brought in guys who were supposed to provide more than their talent. I'm a mused that people are using Brouwer as a Flames filling here, when it seems to me this is exactly what Treliving is looking for (which just didn't work this time).
That's the point now. The question. How do you build a team?

[spetch]

Just saw something interesting on the US Sportscentre. This should of been actually easy to see coming as it happens every 50 years.

1917-18 Toronto Arenas first year - Won Stanley Cup

1967-68 St Louis Blues first year - Lost Stanley Cup

2017-18 Vegas Golden Knights - ???

[heep223]

I don’t agree with the arguments in this thread that Vegas proves that intangibles, chemistry and leadership don’t matter. I don’t even really understand the argument, it’s because they didn’t take any veteran players or something?

It’s the opposite IMO. This is a team that is showing how important the intangibles are.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I might have less sour grapes if they weren't in division, but they are so it's all sour grapes for me.

Screw that team, and screw the NHL for stacking the deck in their favor.

It's absolutely ridiculous that an expansion team is going to the conference finals. What a joke.

EDIT: I'm also admittedly bitter because the team I cheer for has been a pathetically ran joke for 30 years and because of that I haven't had barely a sniff of a team that good to cheer for since I was a goddamn little kid.

Stacking the deck? Common, don't be a revisionist. Everyone thought Vegas was going to suck this year before the season started, including you

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Starting to think Vegas isnt going to be as good the next couple of seasons as they could have been but will come out of this with one of the best prospect pools in the league and decent stable of young NHLers.

Probably be a very good team in 3 to 5 years.

If you want sour grapes, then get them from Florida and Columbus for massively failing their own internal talent scouting

[Inglewood Jack]

how do you build a team? well there's more than one option now that works. you can go the traditional route of top heavy with enough 1st/2nd line firepower to cancel out any deficiencies you might have on the bottom end of the roster. or you can try to assemble 4 nearly equal lines of attack with no art ross threats, but nobody who will get caved in either.

problem is that the NHL and media have no idea how to properly identify which of those 2nd and 3rd line level players are effective and good value for the money. that's where all the overly expensive UFAs and "solid" veterans go, because old school risk aversion doesn't allow you to try out unknowns in those roles the way Vegas was able to.

this is just like how they proved that wine experts only sound like they are knowledgeable, but actually have no idea what they're doing. for NHL GMs, analysts and salty rival fans, honestly the solution is just...stop whining and git gud.

[Galakanokis]

The idea that you can build what Vegas has done on a routine basis is rediculous. What kind of pay raise are some of those players in line for? Do you honestly think they will play for 3rd and 4th line money for the rest of their years? They caught lightning in a bottle, let's not think they reinvented the wheel here. They got great years out of good young players, not much different than Pittsburgh and Chicago when they won. Problem is keeping those good young players.

I like the idea of youth and speed and you definitely need to draft and develop well to keep the pipe line full but you still need established players year in and year out.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

how do you build a team? well there's more than one option now that works. you can go the traditional route of top heavy with enough 1st/2nd line firepower to cancel out any deficiencies you might have on the bottom end of the roster. or you can try to assemble 4 nearly equal lines of attack with no art ross threats, but nobody who will get caved in either.

problem is that the NHL and media have no idea how to properly identify which of those 2nd and 3rd line level players are effective and good value for the money. that's where all the overly expensive UFAs and "solid" veterans go, because old school risk aversion doesn't allow you to try out unknowns in those roles the way Vegas was able to.

this is just like how they proved that wine experts only sound like they are knowledgeable, but actually have no idea what they're doing. for NHL GMs, analysts and salty rival fans, honestly the solution is just...stop whining and git gud.

The thing is, every single one of those approaches works if you get great goaltending, and most of them fall short if you don't. Fleury is having a season for the ages, and he was incredible from game 1 of the season. I don't know if anyone remembers, but that team was bad at the start of the year. They were totally disjointed, couldn't make a pass to save their lives, and spent entire periods in their own zone. But they started the year 8-1 on the back of some unreal goaltending, and that snowballed into some extremely confident play. If you add up Fleury's regular season and playoff stats this year, he's had a very similar year to Carey Price's Hart season a few years ago.

Even if you want to look at their roster, Vegas is insanely top-heavy despite the narrative of depth. They're +40 with that Marchessault-Karlsson-Smith line on the ice, and -20 with the rest. They're similar to last year's Oilers in that respect: they get outplayed a fair bit, their goalie comes up big, and then the top line hops over the boards and everything they touch finds a way into the net.

[dino7c]

This idea that Vegas has no top end talent is beyond ridiculous. They have a top five goalie and a 40+ goal scorer. They also have a ton of veteran players. Sometimes I wonder what some of you are watching.

[Canehdianman]

This is hilarious.

Crapping all over the Knights because our team sucks?

I know this sounds harsh, but you guys all deserve to live in Edmonton.

[Red]

Originally Posted by dino7c

This idea that Vegas has no top end talent is beyond ridiculous. They have a top five goalie and a 40+ goal scorer. They also have a ton of veteran players. Sometimes I wonder what some of you are watching.

A goalie no one wanted to trade for and a 25 year old with 18 career goals?

I think Neil was the "star" at the beginning of the season. Things worked out for them, of that there is 0 doubt, but even Engelland had a career season.

Their effort and determination was contagious and a lot of players had their best seasons. Remains to be seen if they can repeat.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Red

A goalie no one wanted to trade for and a 25 year old with 18 career goals?

I think Neil was the "star" at the beginning of the season. Things worked out for them, of that there is 0 doubt, but even Engelland had a career season.

Their effort and determination was contagious and a lot of players had their best seasons.

??

Treliving tried hard to get him. MAF controlled where he went though and he wanted to go to Vegas. End of story.

[Red]

Originally Posted by transplant99

??

Treliving tried hard to get him. MAF controlled where he went though and he wanted to go to Vegas. End of story.

Tried, but wasnt going to pay for. Reportedly MAF was ok to come to the Flames. He did not refuse to come here.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Red

Tried, but wasnt going to pay for. Reportedly MAF was ok to come to the Flames. He did not refuse to come here.

I remember it differently(not unusual these days) but you may be entirely correct..i just dont think its fair to say a "goalie no one would trade for".

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by spetch

Just saw something interesting on the US Sportscentre. This should of been actually easy to see coming as it happens every 50 years.

1917-18 Toronto Arenas first year - Won Stanley Cup

1967-68 St Louis Blues first year - Lost Stanley Cup

2017-18 Vegas Golden Knights - ???

The lumping of the Knights with the 67-68 Blues and the 17-18 Arenas as first year teams in the playoffs, really cheapens the achievements of the Las Vegas team.
The Arenas were playing in the first year of the NHL, which was replacing the previous eastern Canada league, and the Arenas were really the previous Toronto team’s players given a new name. The Blues (and three other expansion teams out of the 6 new teams) were gifted a route to the 67-68 Stanley Cup finals by having their own playoffs to have the “honour” of meeting the winner of the “Original 6” playoffs (the Canadiens), who easily disposed of them. In getting to a third round of playoffs, the Knights have done something no other new NHL team has done.