[News Roundup] Garbage bag day: Monahan had 4 surgeries!

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

He didn’t win a spot in camp and earned a call up in his 10 game stint.

Earned not given is exactly what happened with Jankowski.

Except Tre admitted he was an NHL player and had earned a spot but he needed to clear room on the roster.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Except Tre admitted he was an NHL player and had earned a spot but he needed to clear room on the roster.

And then he did.

It's almost like there's some kind of waiver situation at the beginning of the season that complicates player moves. I wonder if we're the only team that deals with this?

At the end of the day the right call was made very quickly, and it didn't affect anything in the big picture.

The need for some people to just manufacture and spew faux outrage in the face of facts is unbearable.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Was there anyone who watched the preseason and came to the conclusion that Tanner Glass hadn't earned a spot?

Here's how I see it TC.

Many of the vets had a miserable pre-season. But hey it doesn't matter, they are vets, pre-season doesn't matter and they will come around.
Jankowski was the team's best forward in camp but he was sent down so Bennett could get a final crucial 10 games or so at center. What difference does 10 games make?
Tanner Glass had the most energy of any player in camp. He didn't have a contract and was playing for a job. It was clear when the season started that he was not NHL calibre.

The Flames didn't ice a good forward group this season IMO. Period. It is the culmination of several poor decisions and bad moves. And some bad play by players who are getting paid a lot of money.

I get why fans want to point certain individual decisions during the early part of the season as evidence of the team's failure. But if you are going to quibble with these certain opinions, are you defending the overall approach? If not, where do you think it went wrong? Tanner Glass wouldn't be my choice for where to make a stand.

As for Jankowski, the mistake IMO was not getting him enough NHL games at the end of the previous season so he would be better prepared for an NHL season this year. But the Flames were tooth and nail for the playoffs, and for all the defenders of Flames management, I have yet to see anyone saw they are good at playing the long game.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

And then he did.

It's almost like there's some kind of waiver situation at the beginning of the season that complicates player moves. I wonder if we're the only team that deals with this?

At the end of the day the right call was made very quickly, and it didn't affect anything in the big picture.

The need for some people to just manufacture and spew faux outrage in the face of facts is unbearable.

What waiver move are you referring to? The likely explanation for keeping Janko down was to give Bennett another chance at center and/or not willing to move Stajan to the wing or pressbox.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Here's how I see it TC.

Many of the vets had a miserable pre-season. But hey it doesn't matter, they are vets, pre-season doesn't matter and they will come around.
Jankowski was the team's best forward in camp but he was sent down so Bennett could get a final crucial 10 games or so at center. What difference does 10 games make?
Tanner Glass had the most energy of any player in camp. He didn't have a contract and was playing for a job. It was clear when the season started that he was not NHL calibre.

The Flames didn't ice a good forward group this season IMO. Period. It is the culmination of several poor decisions and bad moves. And some bad play by players who are getting paid a lot of money.

I get why fans want to point certain individual decisions during the early part of the season as evidence of the team's failure. But if you are going to quibble with these certain opinions, are you defending the overall approach? If not, where do you think it went wrong? Tanner Glass wouldn't be my choice for where to make a stand.

As for Jankowski, the mistake IMO was not getting him enough NHL games at the end of the previous season so he would be better prepared for an NHL season this year. But the Flames were tooth and nail for the playoffs, and for all the defenders of Flames management, I have yet to see anyone saw they are good at playing the long game.

This applies to Jankowski as well. In fact, it can be argued that the 10 games in the minors catapulted his season forward.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

What waiver move are you referring to? The likely explanation for keeping Janko down was to give Bennett another chance at center and/or not willing to move Stajan to the wing or pressbox.

Really didn't think that part would need explaining. If all things were equal, it might have been preferable to send someone like Lazar down for a week or two and keep Jankowski on the roster from game one. But as Janko could go down without needing to clear waivers, it was an easy (and in the big picture) inconsequential move with how quickly he was back up.

And that's just one example.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This applies to Jankowski as well. In fact, it can be argued that the 10 games in the minors catapulted his season forward.

This is a good point. We saw Janko deal with confidence issues and streaky-neess in his first year and there's nothing saying playing in the NHL from game one wouldn't have seen him get off to a much slower start. Instead he dominated the AHL for ten days or so, came back up, and could hit the ground running.

Of all the things to complain about, this is much ado about nothing.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

I thought that the team ultimately failed to scored goals and had one of the league's lowest shooting percentages despite creating a lot of chances. We lacked depth scoring. In fact in the first 10 to 12 games, the 3rd and 4th lines did not score any goals, even after Jankowski was called up. Which player helped address that better, Jankowski or Glass?

My whole point is that you can give the benefit of the doubt to Treliving for almost every single move he's made but his moves have a cumulative effect and it is straight out denial to claim he does not prefer to fill holes with questionable vet signings rather than try younger players. In and of itself leaving Janko in the minors was not an egregious error but it is part of a pattern that reflects a failed philosophy. The evidence continues to grow that leaving players in the minors is not the way to build a successful team in today's NHL. You need to let young players on ELCs have a bigger role.

My whole point is that this is absolutely NOT what happened with Jankowski, and the proof for that is in the fact that he played 72 NHL games this season. He played those games because he earned a spot out of camp, and once he arrived was able to keep it.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Really didn't think that part would need explaining. If all things were equal, it might have been preferable to send someone like Lazar down for a week or two and keep Jankowski on the roster from game one. But as Janko could go down without needing to clear waivers, it was an easy (and in the big picture) inconsequential move with how quickly he was back up.

And that's just one example.

But what if Lazar wasn't on the team taking up a roster spot?

What if the Flames had used that 2nd round pick the exact same way the Senators did and drafted Alex Formenton?

Bennett didn't score a single point this season until he assisted on Jankowski's first goal. It was Bennett's 16th game of the season, and Jankowski's 8th. What if they had started the season together as a line?

The what if could be that horrible things would've happened, but are the flames really better off having moved a 2nd for Lazar so that he was an obstacle keeping Jankowski off the roster? Can we say with the benefit of hindsight that all things considered, that was a series of bad roster decisions by Treliving? Was anyone saying it was bad at the time, without the benefit of hindsight?

What if instead of starting Jankowski in the minors in favour of Lazar and Freddie Freakin' Hamilton the Flames had Janko start the season on the roster and had an extra forward prospect like Formenton to help make up for Janko's absence on the minor league club?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

But what if Lazar wasn't on the team taking up a roster spot?

What if the Flames had used that 2nd round pick the exact same way the Senators did and drafted Alex Formenton?

Bennett didn't score a single point this season until he assisted on Jankowski's first goal. It was Bennett's 16th game of the season, and Jankowski's 8th. What if they had started the season together as a line?

The what if could be that horrible things would've happened, but are the flames really better off having moved a 2nd for Lazar so that he was an obstacle keeping Jankowski off the roster? Can we say with the benefit of hindsight that all things considered, that was a series of bad roster decisions by Treliving? Was anyone saying it was bad at the time, without the benefit of hindsight?

What if instead of starting Jankowski in the minors in favour of Lazar and Freddie Freakin' Hamilton the Flames had Janko start the season on the roster and had an extra forward prospect like Formenton to help make up for Janko's absence on the minor league club?

The very simple point attempting to be made: we don't know those ten days Janko spent in the NHL would have helped him anymore than the very brief AHL start did, and at the end of the day it really makes no difference as he was back up with the big team almost immediately.

Regardless of your thoughts on Lazar, the idea of potentially losing him for nothing when we now know with hindsight Jankowski was back within ten days wouldn't have been productive. I used him as an example as to why some moves are made after training camp that are dependant on certain players waiver statuses. The rant about your distaste with the Lazar trade can be saved for one of the dozen other times someone brings it up organically.

[Enoch Root]

What if Jagr had been given time to get in shape?

What if Brouwer hadn't started the season on th PP?

What if Hamilton had started the season on the PP?

What if Gulutzan weren't the coach?

What ifs are pointless.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

What if Jagr had been given time to get in shape?

What if Brouwer hadn't started the season on th PP?

What if Hamilton had started the season on the PP?

What if Gulutzan weren't the coach?

What ifs are pointless.

What if they're not?

[monkeyman]

What if's are pointless. all we can do is ask ourselves, did he earn his spot out of training camp? the answer is absolutely yes. That's all that matters. The Flames of course did what they do and found a way to #### it up.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

What if's are pointless. all we can do is ask ourselves, did he earn his spot out of training camp? the answer is absolutely yes. That's all that matters. The Flames of course did what they do and found a way to #### it up.

1. Yes, he earned a spot out of camp, but there is clearly "more that matters." Contracts and waivers matter, and as such there has NEVER been any mystery behind Jankowski's two week assignment to the AHL. It is exhausting that so many people are content to continue to ignore the facts in this case.

2. How on earth did the Flames "#### it up"? Has Jankowski's development or standing on the team been negatively affected by what happened out of training camp? Is he or the team in any way worse off after the fact than they would have been had Jankowski found a spot in the starting lineup in Edmonton?

Come on. This is such a non-issue.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

What if's are pointless. all we can do is ask ourselves, did he earn his spot out of training camp? the answer is absolutely yes. That's all that matters. The Flames of course did what they do and found a way to #### it up.

He played 6 games at the AHL level and then was back on the team, where he had a good season for a rookie.
How did they eff it up?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

The very simple point attempting to be made: we don't know those ten days Janko spent in the NHL would have helped him anymore than the very brief AHL start did, and at the end of the day it really makes no difference as he was back up with the big team almost immediately.

Regardless of your thoughts on Lazar, the idea of potentially losing him for nothing when we now know with hindsight Jankowski was back within ten days wouldn't have been productive. I used him as an example as to why some moves are made after training camp that are dependant on certain players waiver statuses. The rant about your distaste with the Lazar trade can be saved for one of the dozen other times someone brings it up organically.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

What if Jagr had been given time to get in shape?

What if Brouwer hadn't started the season on th PP?

What if Hamilton had started the season on the PP?

What if Gulutzan weren't the coach?

What ifs are pointless.

Talk about missing the point.

The team made a bad trade that contributed to keeping the team's top prospect from starting the season on the main roster because they had the roster filled with flotsam.

Does that sound like top shelf management to anyone?

This conversation started with Fan In Exile discussing Treliving's history of filling the roster with flotsam like Glass, Grossman Bollig etc. Kootenay tried to shut that down by playing the 'you never know' + 'patience' card. Not entirely invalid, but given Tre's track record, neither is Fan In Exile's commentary.

monkeyman posted as a tie in the an entire organizational issue of not letting young players play.

Janko on the team to start the season or not doesn't have any material difference in how this season shakes out, but posters criticizing management for having too many luke warm husks ahead of Jankowski when he clearly made the team aren't wrong. Considering Freddie played just 8 games for Calgary this season and was waived is just as easy an illustration of it as having traded for Lazar or signing Glass.

Shades of the three headed goalie monster. Again, losing Byron is somewhat immaterial to the fortunes of the team, but just because it's relatively meaningless doesn't mean it doesn't illustrate an organizational problem.

[Angelino]

Glen Gulutzan is still employed by the Calgary Flames on April 15th.

Regardless of what he has done in the past (call ups, terrible asset management, etc) it sheds some light on Trelivings acumen in the GM spot.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Angelino

Glen Gulutzan is still employed by the Calgary Flames on April 15th.

Regardless of what he has done in the past (call ups, terrible asset management, etc) it sheds some light on Trelivings acumen in the GM spot.

No. It really does not.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

What if Jagr had been given time to get in shape?

What if Brouwer hadn't started the season on th PP?

What if Hamilton had started the season on the PP?

What if Gulutzan weren't the coach?

What ifs are pointless.

I agree, It was someone else that said ‘what if Jankowski’s time in the A at the beginning of the year helped home have a better season?’ So it is the same pointless game of what if.

He did what was needed to make the team out of camp, but the team kept lazar, stajan, Hamilton, on the roster and in the lineup over him.

What did the 10 games matter in the end? Who knows. Maybe we get a few more points, but thankfully the team was so bad that a few more points wouldn’t have mattered.

I just have a philosophical aversion to icing less than your best possible team (and sending the message that performance in camp has minimal impact on personnel decisions). To me it was a mistake, much like Sutter playing hardball with Gio and him going to Russia.

It has all worked out, but it was still a mistake IMO.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I agree, It was someone else that said ‘what if Jankowski’s time in the A at the beginning of the year helped home have a better season?’ So it is the same pointless game of what if.

He did what was needed to make the team out of camp, but the team kept lazar, stajan, Hamilton, on the roster and in the lineup over him.

What did the 10 games matter in the end? Who knows. Maybe we get a few more points, but thankfully the team was so bad that a few more points wouldn’t have mattered.

I just have a philosophical aversion to icing less than your best possible team (and sending the message that performance in camp has minimal impact on personnel decisions). To me it was a mistake, much like Sutter playing hardball with Gio and him going to Russia.

It has all worked out, but it was still a mistake IMO.

So, do you have a philosophical aversion to balancing the best possible roster with maximizing the value of assets? As has been pointed out NUMEROUS TIMES there were mitigating factors which contributed to Jankowski's short stint in the AHL this season, and had NOTHING to do with what happened at camp. Moreover, given what Treliving said to Jankowski after camp I think it is impossible too argue that he felt in any way devalued, or that his in-camp performance was not noticed or dismissed.

This is such an impossibly binary view of things. Posters need to accept that in the NHL there is more at stake in making starting roster decisions than mere performance.