I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

With Brad T on the job, you can bank on it. If not Bollig then he'll find some other Grossmann type scrub to pay the difference to.



Wrong. It is a painful amount. Just not to you, who seems fine with bad hockey.




30th place in points percentage. An apologist like you would be "fine with it" for sure.



He's broken 60 twice, and over the last five seasons averages a 65 point pace.



Yes how badly we had to sign Monahan to 6.325 instead of a sensible bridge deal (until a time where some of Treliving's disaster contracts like Mason Raymond are no longer active) to see if he can prove he hasn't plateaued.

We didn't even have to buy Raymond out. We could have gone without Brouwer and be in the exact sample place we are right now in the standings, while having more cap space ready to be spent next offseason.

Why are you so excited about the cap space we could've had when you firmly believe Tre is just going to waste it anyways? That's pointless.

Regardless, I'm not sure why you have to be so indignant. We're all cheering for the same team.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by FlamesFan68

Interesting that criticism of President of Hockey Operations gets locked down on the same day, but the criticism of the General Manager goes on... I'm beginning to hate this new "model" that teams have adopted. Kind of like the Senate in politics, above criticism and a job for life because there's always someone else to blame.

The other thread got locked because of you, not because of who the criticism was about. Self-reflect on that.

Burke isn't above criticism but there is a natural order of things. It's on the coach, and when a few coaches haven't worked out it's on the GM, and when a couple GMs haven't worked out, it's on the next guy. Criticise him all you want. He's probably going to be around for the next decade or more.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by FlamesFan68

Interesting that criticism of President of Hockey Operations gets locked down on the same day, but the criticism of the General Manager goes on... I'm beginning to hate this new "model" that teams have adopted. Kind of like the Senate in politics, above criticism and a job for life because there's always someone else to blame.

Let me clarify
It was locked down because it was just turning into an argument between you and everyone else with you taking a combative stance against everyone.

[Badgers Nose]

Why should Brad take heat?

On paper the lineup is a playoff team.

The coaches suck as much as the last batch, although they lack the charisma that made us overlook a mostly bad record over the past few years.

Sure, Brad put a lot into finding the new coach but ultimately its on GG and his staff to deliver. This is Brad's first coach pick. Maybe next time he'll take the proven guy instead of whatever the heck GG is.

Brad is a long term guy. He will learn a lot from this and I would hate to see him take those learnings and build a better team somewhere else.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I think the main issue in terms of team construction is that our team is relatively slow, relative to other teams and prevailing trends. We are a fairly plodding team, aside from a few shifty players, and really don't have anyone that can "stretch" the ice. Worse, while being slow, we are also not "big" and cannot control the game like the Kings, for instance. Thus, being neither fish nor fowl, we are just... no good. I think, without getting into the pros and cons of any specific moves, the main fault I see is "philosophical" construction. Average sized players of average speed will not win anything - if you cannot have both, at least have one...

But the majority of our players are not slow. So to me this is a system issue.

They are being coached to play plodding hockey. It's why the goals have dried up.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Why should Brad take heat?

On paper the lineup is a playoff team.

The coaches suck as much as the last batch, although they lack the charisma that made us overlook a mostly bad record over the past few years.

Sure, Brad put a lot into finding the new coach but ultimately its on GG and his staff to deliver. This is Brad's first coach pick. Maybe next time he'll take the proven guy instead of whatever the heck GG is.

Brad is a long term guy. He will learn a lot from this and I would hate to see him take those learnings and build a better team somewhere else.

On paper Hamilton was an absolute steal what was going to solidify our defense forever. We've been last in GA for two seasons now under two different systems.

Paper doesn't mean anything. It just means he makes the same mistakes as the average pleb, it's his job to not make those mistakes.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

But the majority of our players are not slow. So to me this is a system issue.

They are being coached to play plodding hockey. It's why the goals have dried up.

I would disagree - do we have anyone who is truly a "speedster"? We have some quick players (Gaudreau, Bennett, Brodie, etc), but a lot of players that are fairly "ponderous" (obviously, they are fantastic skaters relative to the population, just not relative to other NHLers) and then a bunch who are average to below average...

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

With Brad T on the job, you can bank on it. If not Bollig then he'll find some other Grossmann type scrub to pay the difference to.



Wrong. It is a painful amount. Just not to you, who seems fine with bad hockey.




30th place in points percentage. An apologist like you would be "fine with it" for sure.



He's broken 60 twice, and over the last five seasons averages a 65 point pace.



Yes how badly we had to sign Monahan to 6.325 instead of a sensible bridge deal (until a time where some of Treliving's disaster contracts like Mason Raymond are no longer active) to see if he can prove he hasn't plateaued.

We didn't even have to buy Raymond out. We could have gone without Brouwer and be in the exact sample place we are right now in the standings, while having more cap space ready to be spent next offseason.

Sorry, but none of Treliving's actions were forced upon him.

Post that classically highlights a fan who is incorrectly under the assumption that we were suppose to be a contender this year.

Our best players are babies. Most of which went directly into the NHL, didn't even have any seasoning time elsewhere, and we are surprised 3 seasons in (for the most senior of those players) that they might not be delivering yet. The cap space if fairly irrelevant until those young players are ready to be in their prime. Amazing how we've gone to screaming as a fan base to develop our key players from within, to raging about how we could have been spending cap space on expensive UFAs...........seems like this is the opposite of what we wanted just 3 short years ago.

This team is going to go as it's best players go, and almost exclusively, our best players, or said best, our players that need to be our best players for us to be a contender (Monahan, Gaurdreau, Bennett, Tachuk, Hamilton and Brodie) for the most part haven't hit close to their prime yet, and are going to be susceptible to major growing pains, which means inconsistent levels of play at the moment.

We can micro analyse to death some of the UFA moves made, but that's not what's holding this team back right now. What's holding them back is waiting for that player list above to mature a little more. I'm frustrated too, would have preferred better results, but this team isn't failing right now because we signed the wrong UFAs, or Bollig is in the minors, or Grossman ate up some cap space, it's failing because we don't have enough top end players. We have the top end talent right now (or so it seems), but our young core clearly isn't ready to hit that next level, and while that's disappointing, if you take a step back, it shouldn't be surprising.

Your comment on rushing to a Monahan contract just shows how off base you are. Now I'm not saying that you might not be right about Monahan, but the truth of the matter is, we won't know for a few more years. Treliving didn't sign him to a 7 year deal now because he was convinced he was worth $6M now versus a bridge deal, he signed him to that because he felt 2 years from now, he'd be worth more than that, and that's when we want him on the best deal we can get. Maybe Treliving has backed the wrong pony, but you have no clue if that's true or not at this point in time. This team wasn't built to win this year, it simply couldn't be given the age of our young players. This fan base has truly lost the plot on what being comfortable with a re-build actually meant, and we should all remember this the next time we are crying about management trying to build a winner with aging vets and how much happier we'd be if they'd just commit to the rebuild. That lasted all of one season around her, then right out the window.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Yup, still rebuilding. BT is doing fine by me: trading pending UFA's for decent picks/prospects, signing core guys long term, upgrading goaltending. You can pick at specific issues, as no one is perfect, but to me, he has a plan and is working toward fulfilling that plan. 5 year minimum term for a GM if you hope for any stability, IMO.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Treliving is going to be judged on his coaches and his goaltending, because if he can't get that right nothing else matters unfortunately. Small middling contracts to small middling players don't matter in the long run, most teams have one or two on the go.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Yup, still rebuilding. BT is doing fine by me: trading pending UFA's for decent picks/prospects, signing core guys long term, upgrading goaltending. You can pick at specific issues, as no one is perfect, but to me, he has a plan and is working toward fulfilling that plan. 5 year minimum term for a GM if you hope for any stability, IMO.

All the draft picks you acquire from today on will most likely not be ready to make an impact for another 3-5 years. By which time this core will already be on its downturn.

Unless someone from the farm steps up in a big way between then and now to fill the holes, Welcome to the perpetual rebuild.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by polak

All the draft picks you acquire from today on will most likely not be ready to make an impact for another 3-5 years. By which time this core will already be on its downturn.

Welcome to the perpetual rebuild.

Extra picks can be used to acquire players in or around that age group. See: Hamilton; Dougie

[polak]

How often do you see players like Hamilton traded for picks?

That was a rare case of a player asking for a trade. Most GMs will take the sure thing and not a mystery box.

Either blow it all up if you lost confidence in your core (little early for that imo but something similar to how everyone was saying the Oilers should trade Eberle and Hall etc.... ) or stick with what you got and tweak it by spending money and picks. We cant keep trying to rebuild forever.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by polak

How often do you see players like Hamilton traded for picks?

Can you stop being so myopic?

Players get moved for picks all the time. As the core grows and (hopefully) improves the extra picks can be shopped for older players who can take a role now.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Why should Brad take heat?

On paper the lineup is a playoff team.

The coaches suck as much as the last batch, although they lack the charisma that made us overlook a mostly bad record over the past few years.

Sure, Brad put a lot into finding the new coach but ultimately its on GG and his staff to deliver. This is Brad's first coach pick. Maybe next time he'll take the proven guy instead of whatever the heck GG is.

Brad is a long term guy. He will learn a lot from this and I would hate to see him take those learnings and build a better team somewhere else.

LOL on paper this is a 20-30 place team at best. The results the past two seasons under two different coaches kind of prove that. This is a bad hockey team and in a lot of ways mirrors the late 90's young guns teams that had some players that went on to have pretty good careers like Iginla, Savard, Stillman, Morris, Lydman, Regehr, Bure, etc. Lots of young paper talent but not mature and poorly coached. It's going to take a couple more years until the team is a playoff team on the ice and paper.

[Jaydee]

OMG this is so cringy

[Jaydee]

Just tell me what the name of the team is

[tkflames]

I have to admit that during the summer I wondered WTF Brad was doing giving up on Ortio and getting two new goalies. While Elliot has struggled in my opinion, I have definitely been proven wrong on the importance of him bringing in Chad Johnson. It's not the saves that he makes, it's his calm attitude. It calms the whole team.

Brad will be judged not by the coach he has hired, but by how reactive he is to the poor performance:

Overreact with a worse coach and he is likely out of a job by Christmas next year with his former boss in Arizona replacing him.

Underreact and let this carry on for 2 years of sucking and he is likely out of a job by Christmas next year with his former boss in Arizona replacing him.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I don't really care if Hudler's been hurt, he is a better hockey player than Troy Brouwer.

Wow did you already forget last season? Hudler was far worse last year than Brouwer has been for us. Terrible example.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I love Frolik, but he is not a better hockey player than Mike Cammalleri.

That's a bit of a simplistic breakdown. Frolik is certainly a better defensive player than Cammy. Frolik is better along the boards. Frolik is bigger and stronger. Frolik is better on the PK. Cammalleri is a better shooter by far. Very different players. I'd rather have Frolik signed long term at this stage in their careers than Cammalleri.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I briefly bought into the Jokipakka kool-aid but Jokipakka is not better than Russell. In fact the only time he's actually looked good was when he was playing with Nakldal in a sheltered third pair role and Nakladal was getting everything on net. Never mind actually signing Grossmann, whom the coach had pure nepotistic relationship with.

Treliving tried to sign Russell, much to the chagrin of many. Jokipakka is not a Treliving "signing" which was the point you were trying to make originally I thought.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Raymond and Engelland are not better hockey players than Stempniak and Schlemko. I'll give Treliving a pass on Schlemko only because he's the one who brought Schlemko in (albeit by sheer chance with Giordano injured). And yes, Stempniak was dealt just before Tre got here. But not only was Treliving personally familiar with the player, the player hardly signed elsewhere right away, whereas Mason Raymond was a day one signing.

Raymond is by far and away Treliving's worst move but he did eventually acknowledge it.

Engelland is better than Schlemko. You seem to have a massive blind spot when it comes to Engelland, you can't seem to admit his valuable role on the team.

I used to enjoy a lot of your posts even when I disagreed with them but they have really gone downhill lately. Some serious bias to those examples and comparisons and a lot of reaches. Hudler? Seriously?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Post that classically highlights a fan who is incorrectly under the assumption that we were suppose to be a contender this year.

Our best players are babies. Most of which went directly into the NHL, didn't even have any seasoning time elsewhere, and we are surprised 3 seasons in (for the most senior of those players) that they might not be delivering yet. The cap space if fairly irrelevant until those young players are ready to be in their prime. Amazing how we've gone to screaming as a fan base to develop our key players from within, to raging about how we could have been spending cap space on expensive UFAs...........seems like this is the opposite of what we wanted just 3 short years ago.

This team is going to go as it's best players go, and almost exclusively, our best players, or said best, our players that need to be our best players for us to be a contender (Monahan, Gaurdreau, Bennett, Tachuk, Hamilton and Brodie) for the most part haven't hit close to their prime yet, and are going to be susceptible to major growing pains, which means inconsistent levels of play at the moment.

We can micro analyse to death some of the UFA moves made, but that's not what's holding this team back right now. What's holding them back is waiting for that player list above to mature a little more. I'm frustrated too, would have preferred better results, but this team isn't failing right now because we signed the wrong UFAs, or Bollig is in the minors, or Grossman ate up some cap space, it's failing because we don't have enough top end players. We have the top end talent right now (or so it seems), but our young core clearly isn't ready to hit that next level, and while that's disappointing, if you take a step back, it shouldn't be surprising.

Your comment on rushing to a Monahan contract just shows how off base you are. Now I'm not saying that you might not be right about Monahan, but the truth of the matter is, we won't know for a few more years. Treliving didn't sign him to a 7 year deal now because he was convinced he was worth $6M now versus a bridge deal, he signed him to that because he felt 2 years from now, he'd be worth more than that, and that's when we want him on the best deal we can get. Maybe Treliving has backed the wrong pony, but you have no clue if that's true or not at this point in time. This team wasn't built to win this year, it simply couldn't be given the age of our young players. This fan base has truly lost the plot on what being comfortable with a re-build actually meant, and we should all remember this the next time we are crying about management trying to build a winner with aging vets and how much happier we'd be if they'd just commit to the rebuild. That lasted all of one season around her, then right out the window.

A well crafted post that knocks it out of the park IMO. You really highlight how and where we've lost track of the issue and the perspective.

IMO Treliving actually has built a roster that looks close to contending at some point. The issue is its not this year that the roster will be contending, its probably 2-3 years away. We have most of the pieces we need long term but they aren't fully developed yet in the case of most.

When our players are fully developed:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Tkachuk
Bennett-Jankowski-Brouwer
Ferland-Backlund-Frolik
XXXX-XXXX-Hathaway

Brodie-Hamilton
Giordano-YYYY
YYYY-YYYY

where the YYYY's are likely to be from a group of players including Kulak, Andersson, Kylington, Wotherspoon, Hickey, UFAs, trade, etc.

That actually looks like a contending roster to me if the players develop like I think they should/will. The issue is we don't have Bennett in his prime yet. Tkachuk hasn't peaked. Monahan is clearly experiencing ups and downs. Hamilton hasn't fully developed yet. Kulak is just breaking in. Jankowski, Andersson, Kylington, Klimchuk, Poirier, Shinkaruk, Mangiapane are all young pros still. Even conservative estimates would have at least a couple of those turning out well if not several.

The organization has only recently started to become asset rich. IMO the organization right now has the most NHL assets in terms of young players, picks and prospects that we've ever had in my 20 years of fandom. Some poor results in the standings, deep drafts, and not dealing away every 2nd rounder have really helped in this area as compared to the Darryl Sutter years. Instead of needing all of our own picks if not more in order to restock the cupboards, the organization is on the verge of being in a position where we can afford to deal away prospect/picks for the first time that I can ever remember in my time as a fan.

As per the depth chart above IMO we already have the vast majority of the pieces we need to be a contender longterm if several of our top prospects pan out. In addition to that we have bonus prospects that we aren't relying on to turn out but that may give us additional assets to trade. And we still have future draft picks.

I know this season is trying because we expected a step forward and it seems like its a step nowhere. But if you try to look long term IMO the future is still very bright. There are a lot of fanbases that would embrace the inconsistencies of Bennett and Hamilton for the upside of the core that the Flames have.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Bennett, Ferland already in the NHL with Jankowski, Shinkaruk, Poirier, Klimchuk, Mangiapane as extra rolls of the dice. Surround those youngsters with high upside with character veterans like Frolik, Backlund and Brouwer.

Brodie, Hamilton, Kulak already in the NHL with Andersson, Kylington, Hickey, Wotherspoon as extra rolls of the dice. Surround those youngsters with veterans like Gio.

Only in goal are we relying a bit upon the Jon Gillies fantasy with McDonald and Parsons as extra rolls of the dice. Or maybe Chad Johnson pans out. Or maybe Elliott eventually does. Or maybe Treliving goes after a Fleury or Bishop or otherwise. Goal is IMO the only major longterm question mark.

Cheer up lads, the future is bright still! I know we wish that future was now but the rebuild will continue to test our patience.