People talking like Engelland is going to put the Flames into McDavid territory... le sigh. Flames played games with Cundari, Billins, SOB, D.Smith and Breen as the 6th defenseman last year... I'm confident Englland isn't going to make things worse.
Did they overpay him? Yes.
Does it really matter? No - tons of cap space and very unlikely it will be used during the three years this contract is ongoing.
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The big drawback IMO will be in the future when it comes to resigning our best performing players. Their agent will say, "If you can take a guy making $575,000. and pay him $2.9 million for doing this, then you can afford to pay this for player x who has done this".
This will have no impact on future signings at all.
There are all kinds of horrible examples that agents can draw from - at the end of the day, the only things that matter are the very direct comparisons. (Monahan will be a direct comp for Bennett, etc)
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That might be the case, but it is still very unlikely it would prevent the Flames from signing a player in year 3.
I would be surprised if the Flames were right up against the cap.
Not sure it will be a cap issue; rather can they afford to keep him on the 23 man roster if there are 7 or 8 other dman ahead of him (i.e year 3 of his contract).
Not sure it will be a cap issue; rather can they afford to keep him on the 23 man roster if there are 7 or 8 other dman ahead of him (i.e year 3 of his contract).
Thats not a big deal either as you waive him, retain salary and ship him out or just buy him out.
This deal has 0 opportunity cost given our current position.
How do those % compare with other 6th defensemen in the league though. Inherently playing with a better defensemen on your own team should raise your corsi given constant level of competition.
Also why is your 6th defensemen playing with your 1st defensmen. Is it against better comp or worse comp. This is a great example of advanced stats being used without any context. They do show a trend but is this trend unique to Engelland or common for 6th defensmen around the league.
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I understand the reasoning for signing a RH defenseman to a higher dollar contract in exchange for a shorter term, this was a July 1 signing, we have lots of cap room, etc. One of my concerns though is that we have a depth defenseman making $3 million per/yr and Giordano, our captain, making $4 million. Hopefully that doesn't mess with the dynamic of the players or issues with team chemistry.
The more time passes, the more I like this. I would like to see us play a Bollig/Engellund on every line next year. There is only one realistic goal we should be striving toward next season - a top 2 draft pick. We also want to audition some prospects. Signings like this are great because they make the team worse and because they help to ensure that our children are not abused. The trick is of course to flip the switch at some point to ensure that the loser mentality doesn't become ingrained, but the draft next year is very special...
The more time passes, the more I like this. I would like to see us play a Bollig/Engellund on every line next year. There is only one realistic goal we should be striving toward next season - a top 2 draft pick. We also want to audition some prospects. Signings like this are great because they make the team worse and because they help to ensure that our children are not abused. The trick is of course to flip the switch at some point to ensure that the loser mentality doesn't become ingrained, but the draft next year is very special...
If our prime goal is to pick in the top 2 next year, Why are we upgrading our goaltending which is the largest factor in winning games?
When I look for what Bollig should bring to us, this article pretty much demonstrates my expectations: Hit people, wear them down, create space. Anything he does beyond that is gravy.
Engelland is the same.
Start at 1:06
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If our prime goal is to pick in the top 2 next year, Why are we upgrading our goaltending which is the largest factor in winning games?
I was being just a wee bit facetious, but we needed to spend money and all we really got at best was an average NHL goalie, so I don't think the Hillier signing will have a huge impact on the race to the bottom.
I understand the reasoning for signing a RH defenseman to a higher dollar contract in exchange for a shorter term, this was a July 1 signing, we have lots of cap room, etc. One of my concerns though is that we have a depth defenseman making $3 million per/yr and Giordano, our captain, making $4 million. Hopefully that doesn't mess with the dynamic of the players or issues with team chemistry.
I don't see that as being any kind of a problem, personally.
Players understand the dynamics of free agency and that, at some point, it will be their turn.
Giordano in particular is a consummate pro - he gets it and won't be upset at someone else getting paid.
What is going to matter to Gio is how much HE gets paid next year (I am guessing $6m per, depending on how this season goes of course) and that will not be impacted one way or the other by how much Engelland got.
If our prime goal is to pick in the top 2 next year, Why are we upgrading our goaltending which is the largest factor in winning games?
Not that I think the goal is to pick top 2, but signing a strong goalie also serves the purpose of keeping the team in games when they are working hard. It's very disheartening to be working hard on the ice and having the other team's talent put the game out of reach early. The Flames are a team that is going to make their opposition pay for points with sweat and bruises... last thing they need is weak goaltending that undercuts that objective. The guy probably doesn't deserve another pile-on but Devan Dubnyk always struck me as a terrible option for the Oilers because he would let in weak goals at bad times and it would kill morale.
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People still don't get it, whining about Engelland's first pass and zone exits and his ability.
This signing and Bollig's acquisition aren't about Engelland or Bollig or winning games next year. It's about giving the young players, especially those small softies like Sven and Gaudreau and Granlund, the room and confidence and freedom to play their game.
The added toughness is an investment in protection of these young players so they don't get ruined.
There's more to building a team than collecting all the skill players, it's not a hockey card collection.
It's hard for the "small softies" to play their game when they are on the ice with a defenseman that can't make a controlled zone exit though. It's pretty tough to play a skill game when you can't gain speed through the neutral zone.
I understand the benefits of adding a guy like Engelland to a rebuilding team, but the white-washing of his obvious flaws is getting ridiculous. How is he going to create space for our younger players when he is pinned in his own end the majority of the time? I don't mind the deal given the Flames current situation, but I just hope the team trends away from this type of player when the team starts winning games.
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No, I was talking about Gilbert's likely mindset when choosing between the Habs and the Flames.
It's not enough to say "the Flames should have signed Gilbert for the same money they gave to Engelland." For that to work, Gilbert had to be willing to sign with the Flames, which he likely wasn't.
Oh, okay, yes I definitely agree with this. I will however say that overpaying Gilbert at 3.5M AAV or something would have been preferable to overpaying Engelland at 2.9, in my opinion, simply because Gilbert has a proven track record of moving the needle in the right direction for his team and Engelland doesn't.
On that point,
Quote:
Originally Posted by united
To sum up this chart, "everyone who has ever played with Derek Engelland has done worse with him than without him".
I understand the benefits of adding a guy like Engelland to a rebuilding team, but the white-washing of his obvious flaws is getting ridiculous. How is he going to create space for our younger players when he is pinned in his own end the majority of the time? I don't mind the deal given the Flames current situation, but I just hope the team trends away from this type of player when the team starts winning games.
Looking at their cap situation I do think they are set up to start going after better players 2 and 3 summers from now. If you believe any of the comments about the 3 year maximum terms being a big deal to the club that lines up with most of the guys who were here pre Burke pretty much being off the books save the one pending UFA in Stajan that he did keep.
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would have been easier to just post a picture of a giant boat anchor.
Bad fancystats are bad. However, it looks like most of those pairings are not the kind of guys you expect in a 5-6 role. Hopefully Hartley is smart enough to mitigate this somewhat by not playing Engelland in the top four.
The big drawback IMO will be in the future when it comes to resigning our best performing players. Their agent will say, "If you can take a guy making $575,000. and pay him $2.9 million for doing this, then you can afford to pay this for player x who has done this".
This is a non issue. Every team in the league has players making more than what they are worth. On the whole, the Flames have very few bad contracts...Jones at 4 mil, Wideman at 5+, Engelland at 2.9. This is hardly a strong arguing point. If anything, it will be easier for future rfas to point to contracts handed out elsewhere to justify asking for more money.
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It's hard for the "small softies" to play their game when they are on the ice with a defenseman that can't make a controlled zone exit though. It's pretty tough to play a skill game when you can't gain speed through the neutral zone.
I understand the benefits of adding a guy like Engelland to a rebuilding team, but the white-washing of his obvious flaws is getting ridiculous. How is he going to create space for our younger players when he is pinned in his own end the majority of the time? I don't mind the deal given the Flames current situation, but I just hope the team trends away from this type of player when the team starts winning games.
They don't have to play with them. They just have to be a presence.
Last year, after the brawl with Vancouver, Kassian was yapping at the Flames all game long after the big boys were ejected. Took a cheapshot on Bouma as well that left him with a shiner. Tried getting SOB to fight because he knows SOB is not a good fighter.
I can guarantee that Kassian won't be doing any of that next year. He can run from McGrattan as he's out of his weight class, but he'll have to answer to Engelland and Bollig.
This is how hockey is played.
Oh by the way, Flames ended up losing that game to the Canucks. They were pushed around after the big boys left and the Canucks took over.
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