Israel declares war on Hamas

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Those are all post-Oct 7th comments. Before the war Israel didn't have a goal of destroying Gaza in any means.

Hamas actually does have a stated goal of destroying Israel as a state. They call it "Zionist project" and call it "illegal". Also they, being government of Gaza, refused to recognize Israel. They mention 1967 borders without saying that it is Israel, rather than some other Muslim state, should be across that border. They state a goal of a complete liberation of WHOLE Palestine from " the occupation by Zionist project".

In your mind didn't this rhetoric not exist prior to October 7? Will you change your stance if I show you similar statements from prior to October 7? What makes post October 7 statements less relevant than pre-October 7th statements?

Destroying a state is not considered genocide. The State of Israel is not the Jewish people. Also the liberation of Palestine can mean many things. It can include a palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank along with full rights and equality for the Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, as well as a just solution for the refugees.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Destroying a state is not considered genocide. The State of Israel is not the Jewish people.

You are wrong. The definition of genocide mentions ethnicity, religion or nation. Jewish people means ethnicity. However, the goal of destroying Israel and removing all citizens of Israel from the land is genocide by national criteria.


In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

[ResAlien]

Oh man you are so close to accidentally figuring this out

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You are wrong. The definition of genocide mentions ethnicity, religion or nation. Jewish people means ethnicity. However, the goal of destroying Israel and removing all citizens of Israel from the land is genocide by national criteria.

So with Israel wanting the same for Gaza, and as has been doing for years to the West Bank, is that not the same thing? Except they are actually doing it?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

No, that's not the entire argument at all. Part of it is that this will achieve none of their goals. It's killing innocent civilians, and will make Israel no safer in the long run.

It is very speculative though, isn't?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

It is very speculative though, isn't?

It's also speculative to think it will achieve their goals, no? But we can look back on the history of the region and conflicts, and see a very strong pattern. Doing the same thing, through force, will make more enemies, as it always does. A logical analysis will lead you to that conclusion, even if you call it speculation. If you disagree, I may have a bridge to sell you in Crimea.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by _Q_

That is not the definition of genocide. The UN definition of genocide is as follows:





Hamas also does not, in its current iteration, state that their goal is the complete or partial extermination of the Jewish people. This Israeli government, however, does state that they want to eliminate the people of Gaza. They have been very explicit about it. This is from South Africa's ICJ application.







The document contains 6 pages of this stuff, I suggest you have a look through it.

Oof, those statements... Really jarring to any reader if they have any sort of compassion for other human beings.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You are wrong. The definition of genocide mentions ethnicity, religion or nation. Jewish people means ethnicity. However, the goal of destroying Israel and removing all citizens of Israel from the land is genocide by national criteria.


In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Destroying a national group, not a nation.

If for example, the United States goes to war against North Korea, dismantles their military, topples their regime and the outcome is reunification with South Korea, they would have destroyed North Korea as a nation, but not the Korean people.

Likewise, if the US decides one day to carpet bomb North Korea killing 40% of their population, starves their population, destroys their hospitals, etc, that is genocide.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So with Israel wanting the same for Gaza, and as has been doing for years to the West Bank, is that not the same thing? Except they are actually doing it?

Of course it is not. Israel said numerous times, that they would leave Gazans alone as soon, ss they abandon their goal of destroying Israel. Israel never wanted to destroy Gaza and in fact withdrew from there. And let them had elections. As lateal, as on October 6th, there were citizens of Gaza working in Israel on legal working visas. Actually, the very fact that October 7th was so successful and surprising clearly shows that Israel had no intention of going to war at Gaza.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Destroying a national group, not a nation.

If for example, the United States goes to war against North Korea, dismantles their military, topples their regime and the outcome is reunification with South Korea, they would have destroyed North Korea as a nation, but not the Korean people.

Likewise, if the US decides one day to carpet bomb North Korea killing 40% of their population, starves their population, destroys their hospitals, etc, that is genocide.

That's the war, not genocide. Unless you claim that every war is genocide by default.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Pointman

That's the war, not genocide. Unless you claim that every war is genocide by default.

Let me be the first to tell you that, no, that is not how you conduct war in the 21st century.

I also think that international law has made it so difficult to conduct war now that it is more effective for nations to resolve their issues diplomatically.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Of course it is not. Israel said numerous times, that they would leave Gazans alone as soon, ss they abandon their goal of destroying Israel. Israel never wanted to destroy Gaza and in fact withdrew from there. And let them had elections. As lateal, as on October 6th, there were citizens of Gaza working in Israel on legal working visas. Actually, the very fact that October 7th was so successful and surprising clearly shows that Israel had no intention of going to war at Gaza.

Going to war isn't the only way to achieve those goals, though. Have you spent time considering why average citizens may cheer on Hamas, support them, or be onside with their goals? What factors might make a human feel so strongly? Could it be outside pressures, perhaps from a lack of basic human dignity, freedom, and access to necessities? And what could be contributing to that?



Try to understand humanity before writing them off.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Going to war isn't the only way to achieve those goals, though. Have you spent time considering why average citizens may cheer on Hamas, support them, or be onside with their goals? What factors might make a human feel so strongly? Could it be outside pressures, perhaps from a lack of basic human dignity, freedom, and access to necessities? And what could be contributing to that?

Try to understand humanity before writing them off.

I think for most Gazans and increasingly, a lot of Palestinians outside of Gaza it has turned in to one party wants to kill me because I'm Palestinian and another party is shooting back. The party that is trying to kill me are the bad guys. The party that are shooting back are the good guys.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think for most Gazans and increasingly, a lot of Palestinians outside of Gaza it has turned in to one party wants to kill me because I'm Palestinian and another party is shooting back. The party that is trying to kill me are the bad guys. The party that are shooting back are the good guys.

And here lies the issue, replace this is Israelis:

I think for most Israelis it has turned in to one party wants to kill me because I'm Israeli and another party is shooting back. The party that is trying to kill me are the bad guys. The party that are shooting back are the good guys

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Leondros

And here lies the issue, replace this is Israelis:

I think for most Israelis it has turned in to one party wants to kill me because I'm Israeli and another party is shooting back. The party that is trying to kill me are the bad guys. The party that are shooting back are the good guys

Sure, but as a sober, external party, we need to recognize that one side has the intent and capability to commit genocide and the other has neither. One side has valid fears and the other is partaking in crisis inflation in order to justify the ethnic cleansing of an entire population.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Sure, but as a sober, external party, we need to recognize that one side has the intent and capability to commit genocide and the other has neither. One side has valid fears and the other is partaking in crisis inflation in order to justify the ethnic cleansing of an entire population.

Really? Lets be clear - are you a sober external party? You are Palestinian are you not? This whole thread you have identified as such.

Both sides are so entrenched in thinking they are not biased when they very clearly are is a perfect characterization of one of the main reasons we are dealing with this issue today.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Sure, but as a sober, external party, we need to recognize that one side has the intent and capability to commit genocide and the other has neither. One side has valid fears and the other is partaking in crisis inflation in order to justify the ethnic cleansing of an entire population.

That's the problem. It's never been Israel against Palestine.

It was post-WWII west against the inhabitants of what is now Israel.
Then it was most of the Arab world against Israel.
Then it was most of the Arab world against Israel and the US indirectly.
Fast forward to today it's Hamas, most of the Arab world, Russia, Iran against Israel and most of the West.

Either Israel or Palestine could be wiped out by the other side. What's preventing Israel from being destroyed is their military power via backing from the West. What's preventing Palestine from being destroyed is international condemnation which usually leads to some restraint from Israel.

[edslunch]

Leaders on both sides have made some pretty damning statements about terminating the other side one way or another that could support accusations of genocide. On reflection, I think bandying that term about right now is not useful and only inflames the discussion. Both sides should be strongly criticized for their actions, regardless of motivation. Does branding it genocide have any legal weight that will end the conflict sooner?

[Fuzz]

Israel's plan to "destroy" Gaza comes from "the highest level of state", the UN's top court has heard.

The claims were made by South African lawyers as it presented its case accusing Israel of genocide at the International Court of Justice.

South Africa also called on the court to order Israel to cease military operations in Gaza.

Israel - which will present its defence on Friday - has vehemently rejected the accusations as "baseless".

The court will deliver only an opinion on the genocide allegation, although it is being closely watched.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67942983


Will be very interesting to hear the conclusions of the court on this one.

[Azure]

The same UN that has stood by and done nothing while billions of aid money was diverted away from the people of Gaza and used to fund Hamas military operations.

Okay then.