That you've devolved into calling me names is indicative of how poorly you painted yourself into this corner, PaperBagger. I quote the code and the legislation; you lash out saying it doesn't apply. You say you have all sorts of proof that you would gladly share to show us all how I'm wrong; I tell you please, go ahead and share it, and you default back to "no u!" like a petulant child.
I'm am shocked and appalled at your lack of understanding how the Safety Codes Act and its associated regulations apply. Again, you're so dogmatically held to the idea that the CEC inviolable that it screams "electrician" to me.
If you had just conceded that you'd heard an old wives' tale from some journeyman you apprenticed under or your electrician buddies I'd have let it go, but that you not only doubled down on it and almost immediately lashed out at me? From that point on you needed to be taken down a peg.
You've proven nothing, other than that you aren't as knowledgeable nor clever as you think you are. That, and you have nothing but petty enmity toward anyone who dares questions your pronouncements. It's rather childish, and unfortunately you didn't have to go down that road if you didn't want to. I'm not surprised in the slightest though.
Until you can prove you can override the CEC (you can't without a deviance) or you pay up, your words are hollow and meaningless, your lack of understanding is horrifying and worst of all you're a welcher. The fact you claim to be an engineer is actually disturbing and I strongly urge you to reconsider your career.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilboimcdavid
Eakins wasn't a bad coach, the team just had 2 bad years, they should've been more patient.
Until you can prove you can override the CEC (you can't without a deviance)
I quoted the Permit Regulation and the applicable STANDATA, and you just ranted and raved like a madman about how they don't apply; you're being ludicrous. I provide actual legislative citations, and you dismiss them. You provide sweet F all to back your claims up, state you'll gladly prove me wrong, and then provide... nothing!
I'm gonna end this conversation right here because everything you're bringing up has been discussed. The STANDATA does not supercede the CEC. And no I'd rather not see some university of Phoenix degree. I hope your credentials get pulled as you are actually a danger with how little you know about code.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilboimcdavid
Eakins wasn't a bad coach, the team just had 2 bad years, they should've been more patient.
Like I said, I would have let it go until he doubled-down on his absurd position and started calling me names and talking a bunch of smack about how I don't know what I'm talking about. You know how engineers are, you tell us we don't know what we're doing and we're going to clap back with citation after citation until you're ####ing buried.
The argument was amusing. But I hope you guys get past your differences because I’ll be doing my basement at some point here and will rely on this thread for electrical advice.
Need you guys to both be sharp for when duty calls.
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I'm not going to profess to know enough to trump both timun and paperbagger on anything electrical. But if I'm looking at the two sides arguing the semantics about law and code etc. I don't really find either side has a smoking gun either.
If I'm half layman and half technically speaking...
Definitions:
Spoiler!
Rules essentially a set of defined guidelines/principles on how to behave in a certain activity.
Code are a general set of rules on what to do. Typically it has a large group of individuals that subscribe to it, but it can exist without enforcement by a body. It can be used in the basis of business transactions as an expectation of conduct and best practices.
Standards are basically how you execute rules and code. Typically it has a large group of individuals that subscribe to it, but it can exist without enforcement by a body. It can be used in the basis of business transactions as an expectation of conduct and best practices.
Regulations is essentially a compilation of a set of rules, code and/or standard with set penalties for failure to comply. It is typically enforced by a government agency... thus considered law.
Law is a set of rules recognized by a country/government/community as the regulating actions of its members. Of which it may enforce via the use of penalties. In Canada, it is principles based. This means that many times, laws are enforced based on the intention of the rule vs the specific wording of the rule.
What is being debated between the two:
Spoiler!
Before we jump into anything, as far as I understand it, the CEC is a prescriptive model wiring guide. Installation and maintenance of electronic equipment is covered, but if I consider the principles of this guide, my assumption is that a light bulb or a blender is not required as part of the code if you are just plugging it in or screwing it in because wiring work is not directly involved, thus it potentially could be considered external to the electrical system being worked on. However, if you disassemble this stuff to maintain and repair then add into an electrical system, then perhaps yes, it is and/or should be covered by the code.
This perhaps means if you are just grabbing a lightbulb or blender to plug in, the code doesn't apply. But if you open it up and tinker with it (ie: wire a few LED together or open up a blender to repair it) then yes, it is covered.
Code and standard turn into law (ie: Regulation) if it is enforceable.
https://www.alberta.ca/electrical-co...standards.aspx
STANDATA as far as I know is not law or regulation, nor is the CEC. This is why you have to pay for a copy. Same as electrical code simplified. However, there isn't seemingly a well set of rules relating to enforcement and penalties, so it doesn't really enter into the realm of regulation or law by default.
I don't know enough about the enforcement and penalties to uphold these codes and practices, but my understanding is that you need to have the enforcement and penalties before you convert it to regulation/law. It's very possible to have these codes/standards and them to be or not be law/regulation in differing regions.
Additionally, if it was law or regulation, first off, I believe the rules have to be available for free. You can pay for the medium/administrative cost that you deliver it in (ie: physical textbook) but the actual main info must be available for free somewhere (ie: online PDF of excerpts or pamphlets to pick up somewhere etc.). You can see this below.
https://www.calgary.ca/pda/pd/home-b...s-permits.html
The electrical code wiring "guide" on the city of Calgary website pulls parts of the 2018 Canadian Electrical Code and then says those excerpts are to be enforced based on other concepts in the bylaws. That's the "if a permit is not obtained section". By doing so, this is where we encroach into regulations/law. The regulations/law part is the self reporting and safety stuff. It is not the code/regulation itself, although the code/regulation is used to define it.
However, the code portion itself I do not believe is law by default. It is just "best practices". The city of Calgary is saying "We have certain rules. To define these rules, we draw upon certain 'best practices' (ie: Code/standards) to define an approximation what we are looking for. There are other ways beyond these codes/standards to meet our expectations to be considered compliant to the law.
Honestly, I don't truly know or truly care to get into the meat and potatoes of the debate. It's just my two cents as an outsider.
My understanding is that code/standard is not law by default because of a lack of defined enforcement and penalties in the event of not adhering to the code/standard. I think paperbagger isn't completely right here.
However, I think timun laughing off the inclusion of something like a lightbulb isn't completely correct either. I think the vast majority of the time, a lightbulb is omitted. Of the situations he highlighted, I think he's correct on home owners, but not electricians or someone somewhat versed with some form of the code/standard. If an electrician popped open one of those winged super LED lights to fix loose wiring or replace a dead/damaged LED or whatever to install into a part of a home electrical system, then I think the work done should be following the code/standards like CEC or whatever. Quoting the regulation as part of the discussion of code without the right context isn't useful in an educational situation.
I can't tell either of you what to do, but perhaps both should just agree to disagree, split the $500 and send $250 each to a good cause?
Or maybe I'm wrong and that's that.
Last edited by DoubleF; 03-16-2022 at 01:30 PM.
Reason: Better wording
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Like I said, I would have let it go until he doubled-down on his absurd position and started calling me names and talking a bunch of smack about how I don't know what I'm talking about. You know how engineers are, you tell us we don't know what we're doing and we're going to clap back with citation after citation until you're ####ing buried.
Met enough engineers to confirm that I have zero clue how some of you even get your certification because they didn't know what they were doing.
This has been a good lesson on why technologists exist, to be that middle person between Papperbagger and timun.
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I'm gonna end this conversation right here because everything you're bringing up has been discussed. The STANDATA does not supercede the CEC. And no I'd rather not see some university of Phoenix degree. I hope your credentials get pulled as you are actually a danger with how little you know about code.
Fortunately for all of us you're a danger to no one.
And, just because I'm enjoying rubbing your nose in it:
Met enough engineers to confirm that I have zero clue how some of you even get your certification because they didn't know what they were doing.
This has been a good lesson on why technologists exist, to be that middle person between Papperbagger and timun.
Don't get me wrong, I know many of my fellow engineers who couldn't design their way out of a wet paper bag and have zero practical knowledge about anything. That and they can't write worth a damn, which is a huuuuuuuuuuge pet peeve of mine. I spend an inordinate amount of time editing other people's work because I'm embarrassed to let their report cross a client's desk.
I respect good tradespeople and technologists. Nothing would get built without them.
Before we jump into anything, as far as I understand it, the CEC is a prescriptive model wiring guide. Installation and maintenance of electronic equipment is covered, but if I consider the principles of this guide, my assumption is that a light bulb or a blender is not required as part of the code if you are just plugging it in or screwing it in because wiring work is not directly involved, thus it potentially could be considered external to the electrical system being worked on. However, if you disassemble this stuff to maintain and repair then add into an electrical system, then perhaps yes, it is and/or should be covered by the code.
This perhaps means if you are just grabbing a lightbulb or blender to plug in, the code doesn't apply. But if you open it up and tinker with it (ie: wire a few LED together or open up a blender to repair it) then yes, it is covered.
YUP! Precisely.
Quote:
However, I think timun laughing off the inclusion of something like a lightbulb isn't completely correct either. I think the vast majority of the time, a lightbulb is omitted. Of the situations he highlighted, I think he's correct on home owners, but not electricians or someone somewhat versed with some form of the code/standard. If an electrician popped open one of those winged super LED lights to fix loose wiring or replace a dead/damaged LED or whatever to install into a part of a home electrical system, then I think the work done should be following the code/standards like CEC or whatever. Quoting the regulation as part of the discussion of code without the right context isn't useful in an educational situation.
The distinction which you're making here is the difference between a lamp—the technical term for a light bulb—and a luminaire: the assembly that allows for a lamp to be connected to a circuit and actually powered. And that's really my point in a nutshell.
Yes, absolutely if someone is popping open an LED fixture to replace a dead/damaged LED or fix loose wiring, that is absolutely something that needs a permit. The point is that a lamp alone is not "electrical equipment", and does not require a permit, and the Permit Regulation supersedes the code rules and establishes (by law, not by code) the requirements for when and where an electrical permit is needed. 8(2)(e) of the Permit Regulation is quite clear that you don't need a permit for "the replacement of electrical equipment with units of a similar type if the replacement is made for the purpose of maintaining the system and does not modify the ratings or characteristics of the electrical installation". E.g., replacing a light bulb.
Like I said, I would have let it go until he doubled-down on his absurd position and started calling me names and talking a bunch of smack about how I don't know what I'm talking about. You know how engineers are, you tell us we don't know what we're doing and we're going to clap back with citation after citation until you're ####ing buried.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilboimcdavid
Eakins wasn't a bad coach, the team just had 2 bad years, they should've been more patient.
Fortunately for all of us you're a danger to no one.
And, just because I'm enjoying rubbing your nose in it:
Spoiler!
Got your bosses stamp for the day did ya? And once again Timun, re read the definition of electrical equipment. Lamps are covered under electrical equipment as a "thing used in the utilization of electrical power or energy. Unless your lamps don't run on electricity. Moron
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilboimcdavid
Eakins wasn't a bad coach, the team just had 2 bad years, they should've been more patient.
Last edited by PaperBagger'14; 03-16-2022 at 02:33 PM.
