Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I think reparations work both ways. I think that the Palestinians deserve reparations for the loss of their homes. I think that those Israelis that suffered from a terrorist attack deserve reparations. Once it is all worked out, that's it, the whole thing should be considered done and everyone should move forward.

I don't think Hamas / Hezbollah would ever go for that.

Israel would probably jump at it - they've done land for peace before - if there was some hard and fast guarantee that it would work.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

No, I'm sorry, I don't. Please explain it to me. I do not see how an event that took place in Germany has any bearing on their regional policy. Last time I checked, there weren't many Nazi's hiding out in the middle east. I think its time Israel got over the Holocaust. It was tragic, it was appaulling, it was barbaric, but it was also 60+ years ago and in another part of the world.

Funny story, but my mothers grandparents had to change thier names and flee Germany because of the holocaust. A fact that we didn't find out until after the death of my grandmother.

Its hard to forget about your 6 million of your ancestors becoming air pollution, its a major cultural sign post when as early as two generations ago, your religion was threatened with extinction.

Combine that with the fact that Irael was invaded within a short time of its creation by a alliance of countries founded on religion and the idealogy that your nation should be exterminated. Combine that with the obvious hostility of thier neighbours who have declared in thier charter that your evil and need to be exterminated.

So Lanny, respectfully as I always am. The Holocaust is something that forms a major mindset in Israel. Nobody came to help the Jews out when they were fleeing Germany, the average citizen turned a blind eye to it, and Stalin and other countries tried to emulate Germany's action. In Israel minds nobody can ever take advantage of them again, and nobody can be trusted to defend thier homeland except for themselves.

There's an old saying that in order to deal with your enemy, you have to know your enemy, The holocaust and thier history have formed how they interact with thier neighbours. Combine that with the actions of the Arab states and you can see why Israel is always concerned with thier defense.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by Azure

I never said you did, did I?

Did i ever say they weren't either? Please, if you want to argue, don't put words in other ppl's mouthes. At least come up with a definitive response on YOUR behalf.

But I will go on to say that the way Israel acts is indicative of absolute abuse of power in terrorizing Lebanon.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Yup, the minute reparations are metted. Once that is settled everyone should STFU for the rest of time!!!

Don't forget the 400,000 Jews who were expelled from arab countries with their property siezed after 1948. They get reparations too.

[Calgary Flames]

I find it unbeliveable that people actually see Israel as the bad guy from the get go...

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Calgary Flames

I find it unbeliveable that people actually see Israel as the bad guy from the get go...

I find it unbelievable that people actually think these events were 'the beginning' of the conflict. Nothing 'new' is going on out there, this stuff happens every 5-10 years.

Its not like 90% of people believe Israel is right and 10% side with the Palestinians. The Arab 'side' is not automatically wrong because they're fighters don't wear uniforms. It would take a few thousand pages of history text to figure out that both sides, at this point, are fairly equally responsible for the conflict.

But I'm sure there are many who have decided their position based on... well, the news, their parents, and their friends, I guess... pretty poor places to get the 'facts' from.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I find it unbelievable that people actually think these events were 'the beginning' of the conflict. Nothing 'new' is going on out there, this stuff happens every 5-10 years.

Its not like 90% of people believe Israel is right and 10% side with the Palestinians. The Arab 'side' is not automatically wrong because they're fighters don't wear uniforms. It would take a few thousand pages of history text to figure out that both sides, at this point, are fairly equally responsible for the conflict.

But I'm sure there are many who have decided their position based on... well, the news, their parents, and their friends, I guess... pretty poor places to get the 'facts' from.

I agree with you. IMO most of the Arabs don't want this crap it is just being sidetracked by these radicals.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

You think Israeli is "trying" to hit innocent Lebanon civilians? Or is that the information you're being fed by a media that doesn't know how to do its job properly?

Their "not trying to kill civilians" gameplan is killing a hell of a lot more civilians than Hezbollah's "trying to kill civilians" gameplan. Maybe the Israeli's should try a little harder, because I don't know if I'm convinced, and I pretty sure the people who are actually affected by this in Lebanon aren't convinced.

You seem like a worldly guy, so riddle me this: if a fighter plane fired a missile into your house and wiped out your whole family while you were out buying mints, would it make you feel better if they said "whoops, we thought someone else was in there"?

Me, I don't think it would make me feel better. Political leaders on the other side of the world saying "well, they didn't mean to do it, so they are justified in doing it" certainly wouldn't help.

I think that I just might want some revenge after something like that happened, and maybe I'd start to hang out with some people of a like mind.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So Lanny, respectfully as I always am. The Holocaust is something that forms a major mindset in Israel. Nobody came to help the Jews out when they were fleeing Germany, the average citizen turned a blind eye to it, and Stalin and other countries tried to emulate Germany's action. In Israel minds nobody can ever take advantage of them again, and nobody can be trusted to defend thier homeland except for themselves.

As I said earlier on, appeasement never works. The world should have found this out when Hitler was building his empire. All the major leaders of the democracized world thought, oh he wont really invade Poland, he wont really march into one country after the other. And nothing was done whatsoever and suddenly the world was in the middle of World War II. Too bad we never learned our lesson back then, you cant try to negotiate with mad people or terrorists and if you think the solution is to stand idly by and things will go away, then you are sadly mistaken.

It is too late to blame when war and invasion has already occurred. People have to step to the forefront early on instead of sticking their heads in the sand.

As my father always said, if you stand idly by when you know something is wrong, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Who knows what the solution is here, but one thing is for certain. You cant sit back and blame Israel for everything, when they are dealing with and reacting to the acts of terrorists.

[Nehkara]

It is a tragedy that civilians are being killed in Lebanon. If I was related to any of them or in a situation as you describe Rouge, I would be devastated and ****ed off.

That being said, I agree with the camp that says Israel isn't targetting civilians and all of the civilian casualties are collateral damage because Hezbollah operates in residential areas.

I'm not sure why people don't give Hezbollah more "credit". I mean... just because their weapons are relatively crude and have less ability to kill doesn't mean we should give them a free pass for trying to kill as many civilians as they can! They rained down 70 rockets on Nazareth today in the space of only one hour... that's over one per minute. They only managed to kill 3 people but I think people should be far more upset with Hezbollah than Israel.

[Hakan]

Do the extremist Jews have the degree of political and social power that extremist Muslims? No, because Israel is a free democracy.

Jeez as a political science student I would have hoped for better coming from you Peter.

Fundamentalist-extremist parties in the Israeli Knesset have disproportional power. Setters and de-facto 'non-israelis' with perhaps the most extreme zionist views find themselves holding the balance between the Likud party (israel's already right party) and victory. Likud then moves even more to the extremist right in coalition building and in gaining support.

So in other words, your statement is quite wrong.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

It is a tragedy that civilians are being killed in Lebanon. If I was related to any of them or in a situation as you describe Rouge, I would be devastated and ****ed off.

That being said, I agree with the camp that says Israel isn't targetting civilians and all of the civilian casualties are collateral damage because Hezbollah operates in residential areas.

I'm not sure why people don't give Hezbollah more "credit". I mean... just because their weapons are relatively crude and have less ability to kill doesn't mean we should give them a free pass for trying to kill as many civilians as they can! They rained down 70 rockets on Nazareth today in the space of only one hour... that's over one per minute. They only managed to kill 3 people but I think people should be far more upset with Hezbollah than Israel.

I don't give anyone a free pass in this mess. They are all effed as far as I'm concerned. I give them Hezbollah boys full marks for being dumbass loons who started a fight that a bunch of innocent people are suffering through.

I also give Israel full marks for overreacting and beating the tar out of a foe that can't defend itself and, apparently, ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no doubt that this is going to come back and bite them in the ass. This disaster is one hell of a recruiting tool for the other side.

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I don't give anyone a free pass in this mess. They are all effed as far as I'm concerned. I give them Hezbollah boys full marks for being dumbass loons who started a fight that a bunch of innocent people are suffering through.

I also give Israel full marks for overreacting and beating the tar out of a foe that can't defend itself and, apparently, ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no doubt that this is going to come back and bite them in the ass. This disaster is one hell of a recruiting tool for the other side.

I think Israel is tired of it. They're tired of the suicide bombings and tired of the rockets flying into their territory and tired of the kidnappings. Tired of cafes full of kids exploding.

This is what Olmert said the other day: "Citizens of Israel, there are moments in the life of a nation, when it is compelled to look directly into the face of reality and say: no more," he said.

"We are fighting for the right to normal life, like any individual, like any people, like any country, like any state."


I happen to agree with him.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by spiteface

Did i ever say they weren't either? Please, if you want to argue, don't put words in other ppl's mouthes. At least come up with a definitive response on YOUR behalf.

But I will go on to say that the way Israel acts is indicative of absolute abuse of power in terrorizing Lebanon.

You referred to them as freedom fighters, people that fight to get the "evil" Israel out of Lebanon.

Freedom fighters are NOT terrorists.

[Azure]

Their "not trying to kill civilians" gameplan is killing a hell of a lot more civilians than Hezbollah's "trying to kill civilians" gameplan. Maybe the Israeli's should try a little harder, because I don't know if I'm convinced, and I pretty sure the people who are actually affected by this in Lebanon aren't convinced.

Maybe you should look at the firepower at each side, and realize that Israel has the capability to do more damage then Hezbollah.

You seem like a worldly guy, so riddle me this: if a fighter plane fired a missile into your house and wiped out your whole family while you were out buying mints, would it make you feel better if they said "whoops, we thought someone else was in there"?

If I knew my area was a hotbed for terrorism, and KNEW that a certain nation would be targetting that area, I'd get the hell out.

No it wouldn't make me feel better, and I would probably get mad at whoever did it, but I don't live in a nation that supports and harbours terrorist groups, so you and I aren't in that position, are we?

Me, I don't think it would make me feel better. Political leaders on the other side of the world saying "well, they didn't mean to do it, so they are justified in doing it" certainly wouldn't help.

Still, collateral damage has been part of EVERY war since the start of mankind. No matter HOW good your technology is, innocent people will ALWAYS die.

Israel is not intending to kill innocent Lebanese civilians, while Hebollah is, yet fails miserably with every attack.

That to me is the deciding factor.

I think that I just might want some revenge after something like that happened, and maybe I'd start to hang out with some people of a like mind.

You trying to make me feel sympathetic for their cause?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I also give Israel full marks for overreacting and beating the tar out of a foe that can't defend itself and, apparently, ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no doubt that this is going to come back and bite them in the ass. This disaster is one hell of a recruiting tool for the other side.

What, they should go easier on them? Just because they can't DEFEND themselves?

[Azure]

Lebanon's Prime Minister Fouad Siniora just finished a live broadcast to his nation from Beirut.

Siniora denounced Israel, which he called "this savage war machine," but at no point in his address did he call for Hezbollah to put an immediate end to the hostilities it began, by returning the two kidnapped IDF soldiers.

Everyone still think the Lebanese government is innocent?

[Azure]

Sketchy reports are now coming in that Hezbollah leader Sheikh Nasrallah has been killed in an IAF airstrike.

IDF officials said dozens of aircrafts dropped 23 tons of explosives on the bunker. The officials said top Hezbollah figures were thought to be there, possibly including Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah.

The officials said the bunker was in the Bourj al-Barajneh neighborhood of southern Beirut.

However, Hezbollah said in a statement on Thursday that none of its leaders were killed during the strike. "Hezbollah denies that any of its leaders or personnel were killed during the latest bombardment...in the southern suburb," the group said in the statement.

Report from a different forum.

News is that even though the strike was in a residential area, it DID NOT kill any civilians.

EDIT: Added link...

Kind of an update to the situation...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...278663,00.html

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Azure

Report from a different forum.

News is that even though the strike was in a residential area, it DID NOT kill any civilians.

EDIT: Added link...

Kind of an update to the situation...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...278663,00.html

This, a similar story, from CNN.

I love this (from a Hezbollah press officer):

Hezbollah officials gave CNN access into the southern suburbs of Beirut -- the area thought to house the organization's headquarters -- to show the damage inflicted on civilians there...



...

"You never know when Israeli jet fighters come and hit any target in this area," Hussein Nabulsi, a Hezbollah press officer, said on the tour.
"It is very, very dangerous. We are now at the most dangerous place at the most dangerous moment."


"Where is the international community? Where is the Security Council? Where's the United Nations? Where's the whole world?" Nabulsi asked. "We are under fire."

I would guess exactly the same place they were when you were bombing, murdering and kidnapping soldiers.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Azure

Israel is not intending to kill innocent Lebanese civilians, while Hebollah is, yet fails miserably with every attack.

That to me is the deciding factor.

Bingo.