YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Really? Is that what I said? You're really reaching here son

'Son'. Ha.

Well, I don't know that I'm reaching too far. Various members of the site have indicated that they find these pictures offensive and insensitive. You're indicating that their response to what they perceive to be offensive is their problem. How is this different from telling a gay man that it's his problem that he finds the word "fag" offensive?

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

'Son'. Ha.

Well, I don't know that I'm reaching too far. Various members of the site have indicated that they find these pictures offensive and insensitive. You're indicating that their response to what they perceive to be offensive is their problem. How is this different from telling a gay man that it's his problem that he finds the word "fag" offensive?

I understand being a Jays fan could drive any man to insanity but you can do better than that.

Read my post again. And again. And again.

If you are offended by beautiful women I've got a great country for you. They even make women wear special outfits and treat them as second class citizens. It's really hot at this time of year though...

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

But what you said is perfect, because discussion is a HUGE part of the benefit of most threads. A good discussion brings a thread to life. How is that achievable if it's a thread of images with no commentary, or at best, "Wow she's hot." Is your proposed future of it being a firing range for people to post sexist comments and get grilled for it really the greatest thing that thread can achieve?

If conversation/discussion and community are hugely important and valuable things, how does the YLYL thread contribute to either?

A thread has to 'achieve' something now? Has a great and deep meaning? What's the point of any thread on this site in general? What can the threads hope to achieve? What does the pizza thread 'achieve'? We can only have threads that achieve something now? What is the measurement for when a thread has achieved enough to be a 'real' thread?

The YLYL thread shows an appreciation of a wide variety of beautiful ladies and photography, and acceptable commentary. It discourages negative commentary, and hopefully in the process gets some guys to think about why a negative comment wouldn't be appreciated/allowed.

Guess that's just not good enough for you, though.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

My understanding of the point being raised by some of the female members of our site isn't that they feel forced to view the thread, or that they feel men should be unable to post pictures attractive women and discuss them here on Calgarypuck. They (and others) are taking the view that the some of types of pictures that are being posted in that thread and elsewhere on the site are problematic for a couple of reasons:

1. A number of the pictures are solely focused on, or solely feature specific parts of a woman's body rather than featuring the woman. This dehumanizes the women in the photos, regardless of their culpability in the photos being taken, and also dehumanizes all women.

2. That allowing the thread to continue as it is implicitly suggests that the community as a whole condones and accepts this view. The women sharing their thoughts on this matter have clearly indicated that CP feels less welcoming and inclusive as a result.

3. Finally, that this sexism and gender stereotyping is an issue that is not limited to the YLYL thread and is not something that can easily be avoided by female posters, unless they choose to stop visiting this site.

A further problem relating to this is that we have no idea how many female posters have either stopped posting here or never bothered to begin doing so because of the culture that has been discussed in this thread. I don't think that fingers are pointed at anyone specifically, or that the majority group of male posters is being demonized, but rather, that some of our posters are sharing ideas that would make them feel more welcome.

I've been following this thread for the last few days and I fully understand what the women are saying. Sexist comments and gestures make them feel uncomfortable and rightly so. Girlysports even openly admitted bringing up the YLYL thread was a mistake. Because her issues lie more within the entire CP community and are not honed in specifically to that thread. And there is most certainly more that can be done in regards to helping make the female membership more comfortable here within the community.

YLYL is an easy target and eliminating it would be an easy fix reaction to a deeper issue of misinformed young men (okay, maybe old men too) across the entire landscape. Instead of finding a "fall guy" to address the issue, maybe take a long road approach and educate and inform when an instance presents itself and correct it real time. Because in my mind, eliminating that thread really doesn't serve any purpose other than finding something to drop an axe on to make it appear something is being done to appease certain people. And that is a weak, even lazy approach to try and fix a deeper issue.

There are far more responsible adults who enjoy that thread than there are immature ones and quite simply should not have to pay for the latter's indescretions. And again, the responsible adults police that thread and monitor it with pride. can it be policed more to keep out the bum slapping .GIF's ? probably. Should it be policed more? who knows. All I know is, this debate goes much deeper than the execution of a thread. In which some are pointing a finger at as the problem because its too easy to do so.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

A thread has to 'achieve' something now? Has a great and deep meaning? What's the point of any thread on this site in general? What can the threads hope to achieve? What does the pizza thread 'achieve'? We can only have threads that achieve something now? What is the measurement for when a thread has achieved enough to be a 'real' thread?

The YLYL thread shows an appreciate of a wide variety of beautiful ladies and photography, and acceptable commentary. It discourages negative commentary, and hopefully in the process gets some guys to think about why a negative comment wouldn't be appreciated/allowed.

Guess that's just not good enough for you, though.

We now require a utility score for every thread.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

A thread has to 'achieve' something now? Has a great and deep meaning? What's the point of any thread on this site in general? What can the threads hope to achieve? What does the pizza thread 'achieve'? We can only have threads that achieve something now? What is the measurement for when a thread has achieved enough to be a 'real' thread?

The YLYL thread shows an appreciation of a wide variety of beautiful ladies and photography, and acceptable commentary. It discourages negative commentary, and hopefully in the process gets some guys to think about why a negative comment wouldn't be appreciated/allowed.

Guess that's just not good enough for you, though.

Nah, we both know that's not even close to the point I was making, and I made it pretty clear. If you don't want to address it, don't, but save the condescending last line.

As you said, the benefit of OT threads in general is discussion and community. Considering the YLYL discourages discussion and commentary is the problem, along with members of the community having a pretty big problem with it, I still have no idea what the benefit is.

If the cost of the thread is that sexism comes up more frequently, the mods have to moderate more closely, and it upsets many of the female members... what's the benefit? What makes all of that worth it?

That's all I'm asking. Super simple. It's not about other threads, or achievement, or anything silly like that. If you're asking mods to put in more work to keep your thread, I would hope you'd have a logical reason for it.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

I understand being a Jays fan could drive any man to insanity but you can do better than that.

Read my post again. And again. And again.

If you are offended by beautiful women I've got a great country for you. They even make women wear special outfits and treat them as second class citizens. It's really hot at this time of year though...

I'll let you have the last word here. Clearly there is a difference of opinion that is not going to be mitigated. For all your complaining that I've not read your post, I'd point out that there is absolutely nowhere I've mentioned taking any offence to beautiful women. The very notion is absurd. I'm not up on my logical fallacies but surely that has to be one.

[Ex libris]

Originally Posted by Bootsy

There are thousands of threads on CP, it's pretty easy not to click on one that is not to your tastes.

If only it was that easy! There are certain threads that I don't go into because I can tell from the thread title what types of comments will be made...but there's also threads with very innocuous sounding titles that basically become bang/would not bang threads.

Do a search of the whole off topic forum with phrases like "would not bang" or "wreck her", etc and you can see what I mean.

Also, while doing that search I noticed the attitude toward some of the men who try to stand up to the sexist comments...they get told off, get told that they must be gay, get told to go be self-righteous somewhere else...nice.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Bootsy

This is a witch hunt

It's not a which hunt because it was a question (asked by me). It's not a witch hunt because the intent of my question was to ask a group about how they viewed one aspect of this community, a witch hunt would be that group persecuting and marginalizing other posters, when in fact it's the opposite, the group that you accuse of staging a witch hunt is the one that's being marginalized. It's not a witch hunt because the goal is to increase acceptance and decrease discrimination (a witch hunt does the opposite). It's not a witch hunt because no one's being hunted.

It's a discussion, based on a question from me, about if that thread is sexist, and extended to sexism and marginalization against women across the forum in general.

I haven't seen any exaggeration or lies, IMO I think you have mischaracterized what they've posted.

[jayswin]

I've got a phoner

[photon]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

We now require a utility score for every thread.

There is a utility score for every thread. Not an explicit one, but threads do get measured in terms of the amount of problems they cause vs. the amount of good they do or what they contribute overall. If we decide a thread is too much hassle for what it is worth we'll remove it.

Users too.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Nah, we both know that's not even close to the point I was making, and I made it pretty clear. If you don't want to address it, don't, but save the condescending last line.

As you said, the benefit of OT threads in general is discussion and community. Considering the YLYL discourages discussion and commentary is the problem, along with members of the community having a pretty big problem with it, I still have no idea what the benefit is.

If the cost of the thread is that sexism comes up more frequently, the mods have to moderate more closely, and it upsets many of the female members... what's the benefit? What makes all of that worth it?

That's all I'm asking. Super simple. It's not about other threads, or achievement, or anything silly like that. If you're asking mods to put in more work to keep your thread, I would hope you'd have a logical reason for it.

You have read multiple times about what the perceived benefits are, and they aren't good enough for you. That's cool, I get that, you are allowed that.

I am not asking the mods to put in any more work than they usually do.

There's no answer I (or anyone, I would imagine) can give that you would accept, so I'm not going to bother trying anymore.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

You have read multiple times about what the perceived benefits are, and they aren't good enough for you. That's cool, I get that, you are allowed that.

I am not asking the mods to put in any more work than they usually do.

There's no answer I (or anyone, I would imagine) can give that you would accept, so I'm not going to bother trying anymore.

Even if you had already answered the question, it was a super simple question, so there's very little reason why repeating yourself to someone who clearly didn't catch the answer originally was harder than playing the victim and letting yourself get frustrated.

Question is open to anyone who wants to answer though:
What's the benefit to keeping the thread?

What makes it so good?
What makes it an essential part of your CP experience?
Most threads don't need that sort of analysis, but the thread is under scrutiny and some are defending it, so what's the best reason for defending it?

[Tinordi]

Really scraping the bottom of the barrel for arguments to keep the thread.

Posters express why the thread is offensive to them and why it makes them feel less welcome in the community.

Thread supporters completely ignore that and then get in a mind numbingly stupid argument about the semantics of beauty and objectification and try to explain why those people offended don't understand.

Because most of the offended posters are women it's just another exercise in continuing the pervasive sexism okay with many in the community.

[GGG]

Chill, I think you are overstating that the female members of this forum have a big problem with the existence of the thread. I just went through and re read all of the self identified female posters and the main sentiment from all but two was that the comments in the thread and more importantly around the site was the problem. (I apologize if there was more or if I missed any posts or if I am misrepresenting what anyone has said).

I think that it is much more fair to say that some of our female members have a problem with the threads existence and all think the site could generally to a better job with sexist attitudes and language. I believe that many of your posts don't fairly acknowledge this position and sound like you believe there is a homogenous opinion amount the female posters

All that said the last few pages of this discussion have become very patriarchal. A bunch of guys (some with authority) discussing how women should be treated on this site.

Getting rid of the thread does nothing to address the underlying issues.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by photon

There is a utility score for every thread. Not an explicit one, but threads do get measured in terms of the amount of problems they cause vs. the amount of good they do or what they contribute overall. If we decide a thread is too much hassle for what it is worth we'll remove it.

Users too.

Wasn't there at one time a "random chat" type of thread that was deemed unnecessary to the OT forum? I forget the exact reasoning, but I think it basically drew so much attention that it left other threads/discussions ignored. This was like 6-7 years ago at least, so my memory is fuzzy.

I just don't see the real necessity for a random "hot chicks" thread. I mean, if it stays, it stays, the thread itself bothers me a lot less than the little backhanded/subtle sexist comments that pervade a lot of topics. But when the argument is "what's the value in keeping it if others are offended?" And the response is "Well what's the value of the pizza thread? Why do we need that?"

Here's the thing--the pizza thread doesn't offend anyone, it isn't a cause for concern or complaint. Pizza is an awesome thing, and most everyone loves pizza, so there can be discussion of what kinds of pizza are good, what restaurants have good pizza, etc, etc. Kind of a crappy comparison, the pizza thread to the YLYL thread.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by GGG

Chill, I think you are overstating that the female members of this forum have a big problem with the existence of the thread. I just went through and re read all of the self identified female posters and the main sentiment from all but two was that the comments in the thread and more importantly around the site was the problem. (I apologize if there was more or if I missed any posts or if I am misrepresenting what anyone has said).



I think that it is much more fair to say that some of our female members have a problem with the threads existence and all think the site could generally to a better job with sexist attitudes and language. I believe that many of your posts don't fairly acknowledge this position and sound like you believe there is a homogenous opinion amount the female posters



All that said the last few pages of this discussion have become very patriarchal. A bunch of guys (some with authority) discussing how women should be treated on this site.



Getting rid of the thread does nothing to address the underlying issues.

Point noted, but I respectfully disagree.

I think I carelessly used the line "the women of CP find it harmful" once without a proper qualifier like "some" or "many". That is of course regarding how it is right now, which includes the comments that many of the female posters have spoken out about (all but two you said?). That seems like a majority, and because of this, I don't think I've generalised the views of all women of CP. If any of them think otherwise, they can of course let me know and I'll make sure I avoid it in the future.

I also disagree with your assertion over the fate of that thread having no impact. It makes some women uncomfortable and I believe Eastern Girl said she believes the posts and the atmosphere sometimes find their way into other threads. Not to mention WhiteTiger (a frequent poster in that thread) saying that the status quo would continue (which includes judgey and rude comments that do get squashed sometimes, but still pop up and occasionally go unchallenged), and that right there to me is a couple of changes that could be made immediately by getting rid of the thread.

It certainly would make a difference. That's why I'm curious about the value of the thread. If there is value to people in deleting it, what is the value of the thread to those that want to keep it?

Instead I get "WONT YOU THINK OF THE PIZZA THREAD?" lol

[indes]

This thread has definitely raised my awareness to the community that is this forum . That being said I'm glad this is an anonymous vote, while there are vocal people on both sides of the keep/remove argument I believe everyone should have a say. I doubt anyone is going to say what the thread adds, but that could be asked about a lot of off topic threads. Different strokes for different folks. I understand people are against the thread but that doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad thread. My 0.02

[driveway]

I searched this thread and I don't think that it's been mentioned: the YLYL thread is crushing the off topic board in most views.

2.5 million to the 900,000 of the Funny Pictures and Videos thread.

I imagine if you totalled all the FPV threads they'd come out well on top, but it's worth noting that YLYL is clearly extremely popular with CP's readers.

[taco.vidal]

Seems like this is turning out that those who scream the loudest get attention. Vocal minority? Squeaky wheel gets the grease?

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Really scraping the bottom of the barrel for arguments to keep the thread.

Posters express why the thread is offensive to them and why it makes them feel less welcome in the community.

Thread supporters completely ignore that and then get in a mind numbingly stupid argument about the semantics of beauty and objectification and try to explain why those people offended don't understand.

Because most of the offended posters are women it's just another exercise in continuing the pervasive sexism okay with many in the community.