Does anyone have a good skeptical overview of this map, I know there are pages that do a bit of debunking and more honest review of it, but can't seem to find any credible ones at the moment.
This is the map being shared like mad in pro Palestine Iceland....
In an alternative universe, Israel’s leadership would have viewed the Palestinian unity government as a fantastic opportunity. The scales had decisively been tipped in favour of Hamas’s moderates, and the extremists knew that rocking the boat would have brought the government (and potentially the entire movement) down. Instead of a military assault, Netanyahu could have responded with an aggressive peace offensive, offering the Palestinians an end to the occupation and their own state.
But this would have required a serious commitment to peace. Instead, according to a senior US official who oversaw the latest peace talks, the “bitter truth” is that Israeli ministers were guilty of the “sabotage” of negotiations by “building settlements on the territory meant for [a Palestinian] state”.
In fact, Israel’s Prime Minister was never serious about allowing the creation of an independent Palestine. How do I know? Because he said so himself, in stunning remarks on Friday which the world’s media has inexcusably ignored. Confirming what many of us have long suspected, Netanyahu argued that “there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.” In other words, no Palestinian sovereignty on the West Bank, no two-state solution, and no peace.
This is the context to the violence we are now witnessing. Apart from providing catharsis for a nation still enraged by the West Bank kidnappings, the bloodletting is intended to counter the threat posed by Hamas pragmatism.
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Does anyone have a good skeptical overview of this map, I know there are pages that do a bit of debunking and more honest review of it, but can't seem to find any credible ones at the moment.
This is the map being shared like mad in pro Palestine Iceland....
I think that Blankell covered this map thing earlier in this thread. You might have to do some digging.
What this map forgets to mention are the wars! The thing with wars though is that whoever wins gets to write the history after... Anyways inside the spoiler tag are the reasons for the territory changes, once you see them with some context it does help.
Spoiler!
In 1948 after the declaration of independence Israel was invaded(was not the initiator) by a combined army of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. It was a very bloody war on both sides, but after Israel won its territory increased.
The second big increase is in 1967, a war again this time initiated by Israel. However I do want to point out that both Israeli and Arab forces were gradually building along the borders toward war. Israel did strike a very effective first punch and the war was over within 6 days.
The exact opposite (yes war again) happened in 1973, when Egyptian and Syrian forces attacked first. Causing a loss of Israeli territory on the Egyptian side, and a gain on the Syrian.
An interesting exercise would be to look at Germany(or the entire landscape in europe) before and after world war 2, or the way borders in europe changed during the last century due to wars. However, those borders stayed in place for many of those countries.
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Originally Posted by Tinordi
Israel doesn't want peace
Israel signed peace treaties with both Egypt, and Jordan. The treaty with Egypt in particular involved the return of much of the 'conquered' territory. Israel does want peace, it is just that during the treaties the demands from the other side keep to increase. Its easy for us to talk about just giving away more land in return for peace, but we need to remember how small Israel is(in fact Canada is 481 times bigger!).
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Instead of a military assault, Netanyahu could have responded with an aggressive peace offensive, offering the Palestinians an end to the occupation and their own state.
How much more serious could he be?! for each of the previous peace talks(in the last round) he had to release prisoners as a gesture... Which he did, until it was obvious those talks were just stalling, and the main issues remain the same. The biggest being that Israel won't give a part of Jerusalem away.
Quote:
“there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.”
This quote was actually used out of context there. What the PM said was that Israel would still need to supervise the border between Jordan and Palestine. Why? Because even with a signed piece of paper war can start, and too many weapons in the west bank would seriously endanger Israel(If/When a militant group decides they weren't a part of the treaty).
Aside: The main reason that Israel wants to remain a jewish state is a fear from what happened during WW2. They want to have a chance to defend themselves if it repeats itself. Is it feasible in today's world? I am not so certain.
Last edited by gvitaly; 07-17-2014 at 09:59 AM.
Reason: Added comments regarding the article.
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I am curious whether Israel will actually send in ground troops to Gaza.They appear very unwilling to do so, perhaps hoping that the airstrikes will weaken Hamas enough to make it somewhat less dangerous for the troops. It will be ugly for sure should it come to pass.
In an interesting aside, a Palestinian friend of mine is in favour of disbanding the PA entirely in the West Bank, and forcing Israel to fully reoccupy in a fashion akin to pre-Oslo. His reasoning being that if Israel is unwilling to negotiate, make them responsible for the West Bank. His opinion is that the PA is corrupt, has almost no popular support anyway, and its existence creates a strawman with whom Israel can pretend to negotiate while expanding settlements and sabotaging any hope for a two state solution.
It would be a harsh tactic, and the transition for the Palestinians would be brutal; but that's the level of his disgust at the unwillingness of Israel to move forward politically.
IDF@IDFSpokesperson · 16m
BREAKING NEWS: A large IDF force has just launched a ground operation in the Gaza Strip. A new phase of Operation Protective Edge has begun.
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IDF@IDFSpokesperson · 9m
Our goal is to target Hamas' tunnels that enable terrorists to infiltrate Israel and carry out attacks. This requires precise operations.
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Exactly right. The only thing that scares israel is a moderate Palestinian leadership that will force the int'l community to put pressure on Israel. The puny rockets being fired are the best thing that can happen for israel, provide pretext/excuse/talking point.
.... Damn ... Its gonna get even more messy than before.
I just hope Isreal stops once it has finally elminited Hamas'.
No question, Hamas' has to go. But the Palestinian people are just that, A people.
They deserve some sort of sovereignty and I hope that Isreal acknowledges that and allows them to finally turn the page and rebuild into a nation of peace and harmony. Unlikely they take that route given their history with each other. But damn... it would be a great thing for these two nations to turn the page once and for all.
.... Damn ... Its gonna get even more messy than before.
I just hope Isreal stops once it has finally elminited Hamas'.
No question, Hamas' has to go. But the Palestinian people are just that, A people.
They deserve some sort of sovereignty and I hope that Isreal acknowledges that and allows them to finally turn the page and rebuild into a nation of peace and harmony. Unlikely they take that route given their history with each other. But damn... it would be a great thing for these two nations to turn the page once and for all.
After what happened where Israel caught 12 fighters trying to tunnel into Israel I knew that there was gong to be a ground offensive. The aims will probable be to shut down the smuggler tunnels, take out the weapons caches destroy the missile launchers and probably topple Hamas.
this is going to be a nasty ugly offensive with Hamas snipers sitting in peoples homes, in schools, mosques and other civilian populated buildings.
Plus we're going to see all kinds of traps and explosives. I would expect casualties to be high on both sides, Urban combat is the ugliest form or combat.
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Hamas Rockets found in Palestinian school supervised by UN
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Some 20 rockets were found Wednesday in a school in Gaza operated by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the organization confirmed Thursday.
The weapons were found in “the course of the regular inspection of its premises,” UNRWA said in a statement, adding that the school was vacant.
“UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law,” the statement read.
The discovery would seem to confirm Israel’s oft-repeated claim that Hamas and other Gazan terror groups use civilian infrastructure to hide weapons.
“Yet again, Gaza terrorists abuse UN facilities to carry out their violent activities. Hamas and other terror groups are determined to put civilians in harm’s way and will respect nothing in their violent frenzy,” Foreign Ministry spokesperson Yigal Palmor told The Times of Israel. “We expect the UN and the international community to condemn and to act strongly against this brazen violation of international humanitarian law, which endangers children and UN humanitarian activities.”
Hamas launches rockets during 5 hour humanitarian truce.
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Israel announced Wednesday that it would facilitate a five-hour humanitarian truce on Thursday to allow people who fled their homes to return to them to pick up supplies. During these hours, Israel said it would cease all operational activity in Gaza and hold its fire.
Heading toward the exit, we were overwhelmed by the jet-like sound of two rockets being launched from somewhere near the school. Hamas, or some or militant group, clearly is hoping the Israelis won’t strike at the launchers, which are kept underground until the moment of firing, because they’re close to the school and so many refugees.
As the Hamas-made missiles screamed off into the sky, leaving a white vapour trail, the kids all cheered.
The two above videos are tragic. Israel shoots 4 unarmed Palestinian kids playing on a beach and the other video looks to be in Syria but still disgraceful. Both sides are disgraceful.
Anywhere where they won't be firing Rockets from? Seems pretty simple. Don't fire Rockets beside a school unless you're expecting the kids to get killed so you can show it on TV
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Anywhere where they won't be firing Rockets from? Seems pretty simple. Don't fire Rockets beside a school unless you're expecting the kids to get killed so you can show it on TV
Gaza is a very small area with 2 million people. Hard not to be near civilians no matter where you are.
Anywhere where they won't be firing Rockets from? Seems pretty simple. Don't fire Rockets beside a school unless you're expecting the kids to get killed so you can show it on TV
Nobody was firing from that beach and kids still ended up dead. Israel purposely targets civilians just like Hamas does.
