[News] Kevin Hayes signs with the Rangers

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Morin or Gostisbehere please, let them dump whoever they want on our books.

If this happens I smell another Flames spelling bee courtesy of Kristin Hallett in the near future.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by dammage79

It is absolutely a cap dump situation. What do you expect them to get back in trade? both players make right around the amount of cap they are over. Of course it's going to be picks and prospects.

And in Leddy's case, he is young enough to warrant a package of a pick and prospect with Hayes attached (assuming they know full well he is not going to sign with them). So I disagree with you statement that folks are in fact dreaming.

This is the reality of CHI's situation.

What he's saying is yes their hands is kind of forced (though they can get under the cap without trades), the demand would be high, and thus the price would go up. Sure its a salary dump, but they cant be held over a barrel if there's a bidding war. Edmonton, Vancouver and a myriad of other teams would try to jump in that trade. You aren't getting either for a low price

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

What he's saying is yes their hands is kind of forced (though they can get under the cap without trades), the demand would be high, and thus the price would go up. Sure its a salary dump, but they cant be held over a barrel if there's a bidding war. Edmonton, Vancouver and a myriad of other teams would try to jump in that trade. You aren't getting either for a low price

Like I also said, if they cannot work out a cap dump deal with the Hawks, then the Flames wait until the 15th and sign Hayes anyways. The point I was making was there is an opportunity here to help CHI at he same time. I don't really care about what the other teams would do, because they aren't getting Hayes. The report said Hayes will most likely sign in CGY because, the Gaudreau effect.

But make no bones about it. Those of you who think the Hawks will get anything substantial in return for whatever cap dump they make, are severely over estimating things.

I just got jumped on saying the Flames should drop their asking price in said cap dump trade discussions because teams don't want to add firsts to a cap dump trade in another thread, then this comes up and all of a sudden the Flames can't offer enough? Backwards thinking by responding posters. And maybe because its a scenario that folks cannot wrap their head around because the Flames come out on top. I don't know, figure it out.

Chicago needs to dump almost 3 million n cap. more if they need to sign some people. They put themselves in that situation and the Flames, offering up a moderate package for the rights to a player they know they can sign for nothing along with a cap hit player, is exactly the kind of scenario folks have been clamouring for since this whole cap dump shenanigans began.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Like I also said, if they cannot work out a cap dump deal with the Hawks, then the Flames wait until the 15th and sign Hayes anyways. The point I was making was there is an opportunity here to help CHI at he same time. I don't really care about what the other teams would do, because they aren't getting Hayes. The report said Hayes will most likely sign in CGY because, the Gaudreau effect.

But make no bones about it. Those of you who think the Hawks will get anything substantial in return for whatever cap dump they make, are severely over estimating things.

I just got jumped on saying the Flames should drop their asking price in said cap dump trade discussions because teams don't want to add firsts to a cap dump trade in another thread, then this comes up and all of a sudden the Flames can't offer enough? Backwards thinking by responding posters. And maybe because its a scenario that you cannot wrap your head around because the Flames come out on top. I don't know, figure it out.

Chicago needs to dump almost 3 million n cap. more if they need to sign some people. They put themselves in that situation and the Flames, offering up a moderate package for the rights to a player they know they can sign for nothing along with a cap hit player, is exactly the kind of scenario folks have been clamouring for since this whole cap dump shenanigans began.

Sorry. I'm referring to getting Leddy or Oduya

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Sorry. I'm referring to getting Leddy or Oduya

In fairness, I get it. But these are the players most reported by the media and sources that they want to move in said scenario. So the logic is that they cannot take back fair value on these players. I still don't think they'll get fair value.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Like I also said, if they cannot work out a cap dump deal with the Hawks, then the Flames wait until the 15th and sign Hayes anyways. The point I was making was there is an opportunity here to help CHI at he same time. I don't really care about what the other teams would do, because they aren't getting Hayes. The report said Hayes will most likely sign in CGY because, the Gaudreau effect.

But make no bones about it. Those of you who think the Hawks will get anything substantial in return for whatever cap dump they make, are severely over estimating things.

I just got jumped on saying the Flames should drop their asking price in said cap dump trade discussions because teams don't want to add firsts to a cap dump trade in another thread, then this comes up and all of a sudden the Flames can't offer enough? Backwards thinking by responding posters. And maybe because its a scenario that folks cannot wrap their head around because the Flames come out on top. I don't know, figure it out.

Chicago needs to dump almost 3 million n cap. more if they need to sign some people. They put themselves in that situation and the Flames, offering up a moderate package for the rights to a player they know they can sign for nothing along with a cap hit player, is exactly the kind of scenario folks have been clamouring for since this whole cap dump shenanigans began.

As Pharoah Ramses said: "So let it be written, so let it be done".

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by dammage79

It is absolutely a cap dump situation. What do you expect them to get back in trade? both players make right around the amount of cap they are over. Of course it's going to be picks and prospects.

And in Leddy's case, he is young enough to warrant a package of a pick and prospect with Hayes attached (assuming they know full well he is not going to sign with them). So I disagree with you statement that folks are in fact dreaming.

This is the reality of CHI's situation.

I was clearly referring to the posters that basically suggested the Flames could get a Leddy or Oduya thrown in for free, in addition to Hayes for simply a second round pick.

Not happening. Most teams are looking at upgrades on defense. The Flames will be required to outbid those other teams to get such a player. The Flames will not be the only suiter, and because of the laws of supply and demand, the fact that this is a cap dump situation is almost completely irrelevant.

You always have to make the best bid to get quality players, cap dump or not. You are kidding yourself if you think the Flames are in the driver's seat on this one.

[Da_Chief]

Hayes kinda likes and respects Gaudreau?

Kevin Hayes @KevinPHayes12 · Jun 28
Wondering if @27SMiLano asked @johngaudreau03 yet if he can wear #13 next year. #sacred

[handgroen]

If we can land him, having hayes, and colborne in our line-up as 'found money' first round guys. That's a nice shot in the arm for the team.

In fact the 2016 season could see a ton of former first rounders in flames silks.
baertschi, backlund, hayes, colborne, bennet, monahan, poirier, and klimchuck.
i likey the rebuild so far.
and as much as you want to talk about drafting well in later rounds, so much of developing your own talent comes down to getting that first round pick right. good to see our young line-up will be built on guys with that kind of pedigree.

[Demetric]

I think what people are saying is Chicago is in cap trouble, they are in a weaker trading position with who ever they trade with.

If our 2nd got Hayes (not saying it would) but if it did in a regular situation, now that same seconds would get us Hayes and a cap dump and maybe even a pick because they NEED to shed cap and everyone knows it

I think that is the general premise. If we do trade with Chicago it will be a cap dump situation and Hayes might end up being a trow in but the main part of the deal will be around the cap dump.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Like I also said, if they cannot work out a cap dump deal with the Hawks, then the Flames wait until the 15th and sign Hayes anyways. The point I was making was there is an opportunity here to help CHI at he same time. I don't really care about what the other teams would do, because they aren't getting Hayes. The report said Hayes will most likely sign in CGY because, the Gaudreau effect.

But make no bones about it. Those of you who think the Hawks will get anything substantial in return for whatever cap dump they make, are severely over estimating things.

I just got jumped on saying the Flames should drop their asking price in said cap dump trade discussions because teams don't want to add firsts to a cap dump trade in another thread, then this comes up and all of a sudden the Flames can't offer enough? Backwards thinking by responding posters. And maybe because its a scenario that folks cannot wrap their head around because the Flames come out on top. I don't know, figure it out.

Chicago needs to dump almost 3 million n cap. more if they need to sign some people. They put themselves in that situation and the Flames, offering up a moderate package for the rights to a player they know they can sign for nothing along with a cap hit player, is exactly the kind of scenario folks have been clamouring for since this whole cap dump shenanigans began.

The difference is that a true cap dump is when you need to trade garbage (e.g. Kotalik) to clear space and you're at the mercy of the team taking that player.

In the Hawks case, if Leddy and Oduya are in play then it's not a pure dump - these guys have value so there is a hockey trade to be made. Yes the Hawks are hamstrung by needing to make a move but it's not too different from if the players had requested trades - you still auction them to the highest bidder, and there will be several, you just won't A grade offers

[handgroen]

Originally Posted by Demetric

I think what people are saying is Chicago is in cap trouble, they are in a weaker trading position with who ever they trade with.

If our 2nd got Hayes (not saying it would) but if it did in a regular situation, now that same seconds would get us Hayes and a cap dump and maybe even a pick because they NEED to shed cap and everyone knows it

I think that is the general premise. If we do trade with Chicago it will be a cap dump situation and Hayes might end up being a trow in but the main part of the deal will be around the cap dump.

http://www.capgeek.com/blackhawks/

looking at chicago's situation the only realistic cap dump they can make would be hossa. he's the only guy without a no-trade, UFA in seven years when he'll be 42. Great player horrid deal and something that the hawks will likely need to unburden themselves of with the kane toewes contracts on the horizon.

[Vinny01]

Getting Hayes will somewhat make up for getting screwed by Erixon. Sutter kept the wrong first in the Jokinen trade as the flames drafted Erixon in 09 and lost out on Gormley in 2010. Getting Hayes will be a nice pick up for Calgary. He would fill a spot of greatest need for the flames, had size, and also has chemistry with 2 prospects.

[StrykerSteve]

Hayes would immediately become Calgary's second-best RW prospect behind Poirier.

If he truly does sign with them, I hope he goes to Adirondack and they reunite the Gaudreau - Arnold - Hayes line to see if it can effectively make the jump from college to the pro ranks.

I can't think of any examples where an entire line of junior/college chemistry has paid off in the NHL, has me wondering if it's ever happened before.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by handgroen

http://www.capgeek.com/blackhawks/

looking at chicago's situation the only realistic cap dump they can make would be hossa. he's the only guy without a no-trade, UFA in seven years when he'll be 42. Great player horrid deal and something that the hawks will likely need to unburden themselves of with the kane toewes contracts on the horizon.

They aren't going to do that because of the cap retention ramifications if he decides to retire early, which the Blackhawks will have no control over if he is traded.

If they were THAT concerned about him being a burden, they should have compliance bought him out where those implications would go away.

To be fair, Hossa is still very good, and plays a puck protection style that I think most will expect to age well. If he can keep playing reasonably effectively until say, age 38 (which is possible with his abilities), then the retention piece won't be as steep, especially with the rising cap.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by edslunch

The difference is that a true cap dump is when you need to trade garbage (e.g. Kotalik) to clear space and you're at the mercy of the team taking that player.

In the Hawks case, if Leddy and Oduya are in play then it's not a pure dump - these guys have value so there is a hockey trade to be made. Yes the Hawks are hamstrung by needing to make a move but it's not too different from if the players had requested trades - you still auction them to the highest bidder, and there will be several, you just won't A grade offers

This is the point I was trying to make, but I like the way you have put it into words, and the reason I said not a "pure" cap dump situation. Of course the Hawks are moving him because of salary, but unlike the likes of Kotalik, they are moving guys that are valuable roster pieces.

The Hawks have been in much more dire situations and managed to get positive and fair market value assets back for the following:

Byfuglien
Ladd
Versteeg
Bolland
Barker
Bollig

This situation won't be any different. The opposing GM's won't gang up together and decide they are all going to lowball the Blackhawks because of their situation. He will become available and many teams will put in bids, expect the price to be at, or very close to market price for these players.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

If he truly does sign with them, I hope he goes to Adirondack and they reunite the Gaudreau - Arnold - Hayes line to see if it can effectively make the jump from college to the pro ranks.

If Gaudreau is sent to the AHL and the Flames sign Hayes, I prefer they don't keep the line together. I think it's better for their development if they get to play with different players.

[Coach]

every time I see this thread bumped I'm hoping for the trailer to be updated to **Will hold out to sign with Flames*

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by Fire

If Gaudreau is sent to the AHL and the Flames sign Hayes, I prefer they don't keep the line together. I think it's better for their development if they get to play with different players.

That's a fair point.

However I do feel you need to at least give the line a shot for a few games... you may have lightning in a bottle there and to completely ignore it would be doing yourself a disservice.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by handgroen

If we can land him, having hayes, and colborne in our line-up as 'found money' first round guys.

This is the approach to take. Adding Hayes is like finding that $20 bill on the street. The fact he is big and plays a position we are extremely thin on is just a huge benefit. He may not turn out to be a long term solution, but he is a solution to what ails the organization.