Israel declares war on Hamas

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Leondros

I found this article to be the main form of reference upon which other articles are written. It gives first hand accounts, interviews and details on the formation of Hamas and specifically how Israel was involved.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090926...295011847.html

They did eventually turn on the organization upon its formal creation in the last 80's but by that time the cat was out of the bag.

Once again, the Muslim Brotherhood and Mujama al-Islamiya had both denounced violence and were random charities.

What would be the reaction now, if Israel just started storming random mosques and charities? Especially ones that had denounced violence?

Your article doesn't actually provide any concrete facts of how Israel helped in the creation of Hamas? Did they give them money? Weapons? No.

All it says is Israel allowed charities, that had denounced violence, to build mosques and schools. What kind of reaction would the press have had if Israel had instead stormed these schools and mosques and torn them down? Israel has no control over whether or not a Palestinian can have a mosque. Are you suggesting that Israel should go into Palestinian neighbourhoods and forcibly remove people from mosques? Destroy schools? That would go over really well, I'm sure.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

By your definition, there could never be any "representative" of the people of Gaza, as most people are minors and cannot vote. Nevermind the fact that the majority of actual voters would re-vote for Hamas.

Can you provide your data source for the ‘fact’ that majority would re-vote for hamas?

Thank you.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by blankall

Once again, the Muslim Brotherhood and Mujama al-Islamiya had both denounced violence and were random charities.

What would be the reaction now, if Israel just started storming random mosques and charities? Especially ones that had denounced violence?

Your article doesn't actually provide any concrete facts of how Israel helped in the creation of Hamas? Did they give them money? Weapons? No.

All it says is Israel allowed charities, that had denounced violence, to build mosques and schools. What kind of reaction would the press have had if Israel had instead stormed these schools and mosques and torn them down? Israel has no control over whether or not a Palestinian can have a mosque. Are you suggesting that Israel should go into Palestinian neighbourhoods and forcibly remove people from mosques? Destroy schools? That would go over really well, I'm sure.

This is fair, I think the context is more in the sense that Israel watched this happen rather than stepping in versus actively supporting Hamas as the monster it is today. Point conceded.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

This is what you fail to understand. I have no interest in blaming Israel. I'm just interested in having clarity about what the Israeli government is doing.

The reason for that is their actions are grave, and many posters here are still not admitting to themselves what the Israeli government's endgame is even though it is being articulated in the open.

Blame doesn't interest me.

I don't know what Israel's end game is, though I can see that it is likely going to be more severe control and restriction of both Gaza and the West Bank.

That is the price that is to be paid for Hamas being allowed to come to the point of where Oct 7 happened.

So again I ask, who is really at fault for the billions in aid sent to Gaza that was used to build military infrastructure that allowed Hamas to carry out the attacks? Follow the money.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Leondros

This is fair, I think the context is more in the sense that Israel watched this happen rather than stepping in versus actively supporting Hamas as the monster it is today. Point conceded.

However on the other hand I would think it is fair to say that the countries / organizations that sent billions to Gaza that was basically stolen by Hamas have some responsibility in helping build up Hamas, don't you?

I mean there are probably thousands of terrorist organizations like Hamas where if they would get that kind of funding and support would pose a much more extreme danger in the area they are operating in. But mechanisms exist that either restrict the funding, or they are attacked / restricted.

However with Hamas, I'm not quite sure how their leaders make off like billionare bandits and the people of Gaza suffered. Something is missing.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Azure

However on the other hand I would think it is fair to say that the countries / organizations that sent billions to Gaza that was basically stolen by Hamas have some responsibility in helping build up Hamas, don't you?

I mean there are probably thousands of terrorist organizations like Hamas where if they would get that kind of funding and support would pose a much more extreme danger in the area they are operating in. But mechanisms exist that either restrict the funding, or they are attacked / restricted.

However with Hamas, I'm not quite sure how their leaders make off like billionare bandits and the people of Gaza suffered. Something is missing.

I don't see the point you are trying to make. You don't have to look very far in history to see plenty of funding from both states and organizations that leads to terrorist activity.

Just looking at the US Colombia, Nicaragua, and Syria all come to mind. In fact, even Al-Qaeda/Osama received a lot of state funding.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Leondros

I don't see the point you are trying to make. You don't have to look very far in history to see plenty of funding from both states and organizations that leads to terrorist activity.

Just looking at the US Colombia, Nicaragua, and Syria all come to mind. In fact, even Al-Qaeda/Osama received a lot of state funding.

My point is that everyone is so outraged at Israel for what is going on, but they completely ignore the money behind Hamas that has led to the Oct 7 attacks, and what is going on now in Gaza.

Go protest in the streets about that.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Azure

My point is that everyone is so outraged at Israel for what is going on, but they completely ignore the money behind Hamas that has led to the Oct 7 attacks, and what is going on now in Gaza.

Go protest in the streets about that.

Never been in a protest in my life, and don't intend to. It gives off some really radical vibes and energy that I frankly would not want to subject myself to. And even if you did I most certainly would not be protesting about something as lame as the funding of Hamas. Maybe something more fun like fluoride in the water, or smog killing the birds - more local, and less "take myself" serious vibes.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't know what Israel's end game is, though I can see that it is likely going to be more severe control and restriction of both Gaza and the West Bank.

That is the price that is to be paid for Hamas being allowed to come to the point of where Oct 7 happened.

So again I ask, who is really at fault for the billions in aid sent to Gaza that was used to build military infrastructure that allowed Hamas to carry out the attacks? Follow the money.

How would I know? Why do I need to answer for that?

It's like me asking you to answer who is at fault for giving the Israeli government weapons that they use to bomb and strafe Gaza. Who cares?! The government is acting in a sovereign fashion and making its own choices as to what to do with its resources.

[activeStick]

Oh boy, a bomb was set off in Iran during a public ceremony for a slain general, killing at least 103 people. Not good. My early guesses are it was carried out by Israel or the US... Things are really turning up over in that region.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Oh boy, a bomb was set off in Iran during a public ceremony for a slain general, killing at least 103 people. Not good. My early guesses are it was carried out by Israel or the US... Things are really turning up over in that region.

I doubt it was either. More likely a Sunni extremist organization. The attack doesn't have any strategic value to either Israel or the the U.S. The fact a second explosion was timed 20 minutes after the first is an earmark for terrorist groups who want maximum death by also killing first responders.

[activeStick]

The goal would be to create fear, create chaos and create unrest amongst the civilian population to urge them to uprise against a leadership that does not play nice with the west.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by activeStick

The goal would be to create fear, create chaos and create unrest amongst the civilian population to urge them to uprise against a leadership that does not play nice with the west.

Either the USA or Israel would have a major diplomatic/political incident on their hands if they got caught anywhere near that. Israel committing such an attack, would also accomplish the exact opposite of what you are stating it would. It would unite people behind the Ayatollahs against Israel.

The region is full of random militant groups, who all have their own motives for and history of carrying out such an attack.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Can you provide your data source for the ‘fact’ that majority would re-vote for hamas?

Thank you.

In the Gaza Strip, Abbas receives 34% of the votes (compared to 30% three months ago) and Haniyeh receives 61% (compared to 60% three months ago).

Vote for Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands today at 47% (compared to 45% three months ago) and for Fatah at 27% (compared to 28% three months ago).

The majority of the 26% remains undecided...I guess you could make the case that none of those voters would vote Hamas. That still has Hamas winning the presidential vote in a landslide.


https://pcpsr.org/en/node/858

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Oh boy, a bomb was set off in Iran during a public ceremony for a slain general, killing at least 103 people. Not good. My early guesses are it was carried out by Israel or the US... Things are really turning up over in that region.

There are far more plausible culprits, headed by ISIS. Thousands a year are killed in Sunni vs #####e sectarian violence in that part of the world.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

The majority of the 26% remains undecided...I guess you could make the case that none of those voters would vote Hamas. That still has Hamas winning the presidential vote in a landslide.


https://pcpsr.org/en/node/858

Got it. Just so we’re clear, what you stated as fact wasn’t actually a fact. It was just you projecting your own biases and ‘affirming’ them with things you think would make your worldview more valid.

Also, the link you cite is from 2021. Do you think that captures the political landscape today? Might anything have changed?!

Can’t take the discussion seriously when you just make stuff up.

[blankall]

Nm

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Got it. Just so we’re clear, what you stated as fact wasn’t actually a fact. It was just you projecting your own biases and ‘affirming’ them with things you think would make your worldview more valid.

Also, the link you cite is from 2021. Do you think that captures the political landscape today? Might anything have changed?!

Can’t take the discussion seriously when you just make stuff up.

2021 is relevant as that was the last date an election was scheduled for. An election that Fatah cancelled after polls revealed a likely large win by Hamas.

I'm not sure what your think I'm making up, not that's a huge margin of victory for Hamas, in both the Presidential and legislative elections.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by blankall

I'm not sure what your think I'm making up,

Well, the thing is, you do have a history of a willingness to blatantly lie through your teeth.
Fact.

[afc wimbledon]

It's obviously impossible to judge accurately but during the Arab Spring when the middle east was in turmoil there were few demonstrations in Gaza, every indication, every poll suggests Hamas are very popular in Gaza, in fact most of the posters here talk about how Israels actions will lead to support for Hamas so it's churlish to suggest Hamas isnt popular when you are also arguing Israel has been engaging in decades of oppression and brutality

Gazans hate Israel and so support Hamas, I doubt anyone thinks otherwise